This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

• If this source 8 is reliable then please verify this quotation THE Arab expedition against Thana was a success and not a failure. For had it been a failure, it would have resulted in a disaster for the Arabs. Who knows that they might not have been killed to a man? But as it is, nothing of the kind took place. As a matter of fact, they returned home (evidently with flying colours) with not a single soul lost, as is clear from the speech of the Caliph to 'Uthman ath-Thaqafi, who was responsible for the expedition. The Arabs did not proceed further, not because their arms were not victorious, but because they were not allowed to do so by the Caliph 'Umar himself. The reason for the Caliph's action is not far to seek.. as this seems WP:OR
• Does this source 9 come under WP:AGEMATTERS?
• Lastly this source 10 quotes In 15/636 the Caliph appointed Usman bin 'As, the governor of Baihrain and Amman. He was a daring and dashing conquerer. Seeking new laurels, he sent his brother Hakim bin Abil 'As to attack India in the same year. A fierce battle was fought resulting in the first Muslim victory on Behruch (Gujarat) and Thana (Bombay). This victory was followed by a second victory over Daibal and Thatta (Karachi) under the seasoned generalship of the second brother of the governor named Mugirah bin Abil 'Asi. and its primary source is futuhal buldan which is according to other historians like Rc. Majumdar 11 is silent here

Jonharojjashi (talk) 13:45, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

What page are these sources being used for? What quotations are these sources being used for? Where can one access the Dacca University Bulletin? Is another user citing the Dacca University Bulletin, or are you? Is there any reason we shouldn't be taking the citation on good faith (which is what Wikipedia encourages; that is to say, is this claim being contradicted in other reliable sources)?

My inclination is to think that the first and second sources are both quite old to be cited (1955 and 1924 respectively). I would hope there are better sources for the content under consideration than a hundred-year-old monograph. That said, context matters. What is the content, and for what page? P-Makoto (she/her) (talk) 15:50, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

These sources have been used to cite Battle of Thane. The quotations are used for showing Arab victory in the Battle of Thane. I have not brought or cited these 12,13 sources on that page, I just wanted to know whether this old source can be used for quotation or not (If it's not WP:OR) though these two quotations/sources contradict other reliable sources which are cited on the Battle of Thane. If the source is old and non accessible and contains possible original research so it can be removed boldly from the article? Also pinging User:ImperialAficionado as only he can tell from where he gets access to the Dacca University Bulletin Jonharojjashi (talk) 17:33, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

I had a Pdf of 14. And I have read the same on 15. Surprisingly, the texts of these two books and Dacca Bulletin are the same. Imperial^AFCND 17:46, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

I am a little confused by the original research question. The rule limiting original research applies to us as Wikipedia editors. It is okay if a secondary source "contains original research". The authors of secondary sources we cite are free to do original research; that's precisely what secondary sources are about. We look to reliable sources that have done the research and summarize their findings, rather than do original primary source research ourselves. P-Makoto (she/her) (talk) 18:30, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

It was not like that. The secondary sources used here didn't mention Rashidun Caliphate, but did mention Arabs made this raid. So, making a conclusion that those Arabs were Rashidun just because it was Rashidun era won't be an OR? Imperial^AFCND 04:24, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

• I did some research in a while, you're right here it has nothing to do with any original research but what about WP:OLDSOURCES? Please give your conclusion whether both of these sources 16, 17 can be used for citing Battle of Thane or not.
• Now User:ImperialAficionado is saying that Rashidun Caliphate isn't explicitly mentioned by sources but can't we WP:UCS? If we look carefully Caliph Umar was a Rashidun Caliph and during his reign the Battle of Thane occurred. User:P-Makoto Note that User:ImperialAficionado is familiar with WP:CALC 18 isn't original research. (Though it's not relevant here)

Jonharojjashi (talk) 06:07, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

We can use WP:UCS, but if there is no mention that the Caliph sent the raid; as I read through some sources, I found that the raid was directed by the Governor of Bahrain without the consent of the Caliph. So OR has a significant importance here using for the belligerent. Imperial^AFCND 07:56, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

There was a debate whether or not blackpast.org can be used to verify biographical information on the talk page for Claudine Gay (in this case, regarding her DOB)

Why it matters: Blackpast has some information that is otherwise very difficult to verify with reliable sources, particularly for academics and other people noteable in their respective fields.

The primary counterargument: A significant amount of content is originally submitted by users, making it potentially user-generated

The Arguments in Favor of Blackpast:

-They are considered reliable by other generally reliable sources

-the founder is considered an authority in his field

-there are internal review processes that meet or exceed the standards expected of most news papers

(-the specific entry in question is written by an expert in their field)

What is the reliability of blackpast.org in such cases?

Option 1: Generally reliable

• Option 2: Additional considerations
• Option 3: Generally unreliable
• Option 4: Deprecate

(Voting options removed per suggestion)

FortunateSons (talk) 22:41, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

Specifically for the purpose of verifying Claudine Gay's date of birth on the Claudine Gay page, I would go with Option 1: generally reliable. The existence of an editorial review process run by the site administrator, and the fact that the entry in question is written by an expert in the field of Black history (Malik Simba, a trained professor) lends confidence in the source. One gets the impression that as a scholar, Simba conducted research to confirm that date of birth (perhaps interviewing Claudine Gay, or verifying with a birth record), and in light of the review process, his article on Claudine Gay received editorial review. As such, for the purpose of verifying Claudine Gay's date of birth, this source is independent, not self-published, and reliable. P-Makoto (she/her) (talk) 02:01, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Thank you very much. May I assume that this also generally applies to articles from blackpast.org unless there is an indication otherwise? FortunateSons (talk) 10:15, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

I think my answer is sufficiently clear for the purposes. I have refrained from weighing in on all of BlackPast, since it's not necessary for answering your question. Reliable source questions are answered in context. My answer is that my sense is that this article from BlackPast, authored by Malik Simba, can be considered generally reliable for the topic of Claudine Gay. P-Makoto (she/her) (talk) 13:04, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Ok, thank you FortunateSons (talk) 13:37, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

I would say its likely reliable for that information but would caution against including any BLP info which can only be found in a single source in an article outside of ABOUTSELF. Sorry if "reliable but don't include without a second source" is the most frustrating possible answer you could possibly have gotten, I know I used to hate getting it. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 05:41, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Thank you.

There is no (significant) issue verifying the year of birth with a reliable source, but finding the actual DOB is rather difficult because the DOB of a former president of a university is not really printed outside of niche or denigrated sources. Could I use the general sources for the year and then use blackpast.org for the month and day? FortunateSons (talk) 10:18, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

So then just use YOB. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 13:04, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

I would assess biographies here on a case by case basis (so I guess option 2 in general) and that this would be a reliable biography based on the author and other factors so I think it would be fine to use (option 21 for this specific use). I'm not sure I see a reason to seek an additional source for a non-contentious fact. BobFromBrockley (talk) 12:07, 4 January 2024 (UTC) I just corrected my numbering as what I wrote doesn't make sense. But this shouldn't really be an RfC. BobFromBrockley (talk) 17:21, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

From what is written above, I'd say WP:DOB might be reasonably held to apply. We have a year, easily sourced, which is almost always all that is of any significance for an academic, and thus all the article really needs, and having to look to a single possibly questionable source for an exact date suggests to me that we needn't include that. AndyTheGrump (talk) 12:20, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

She is (for now) so well known that I do not believe that she meets the description of a borderline or relatively unknown person. In addition, there are other sources, they are just depreciated and therefore cannot be used.

Therefore, I will add the date as the source is considered reliable in this case. FortunateSons (talk) 12:37, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

WP:DOB. The standard for inclusion of personal information of living persons is higher than mere existence of a reliable source that could be verified. What encyclopaedic purpose exactly is being met by including an exact date of birth for someone known in a field where such information is not considered of significance, and thus not generally discussed? AndyTheGrump (talk) 12:56, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

If you are posing a question about whether this information is due (as in due weight), that seems to be a separate question from whether or not Malik Simba's article for BlackPast is reliable. P-Makoto (she/her) (talk) 13:05, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

I'm not 'posing a question'. I'm pointing out that WP:BLP directly addresses the inclusion of exact dates, and that being reliably sourced is not on its own sufficient grounds for inclusion. This is a direct response to FortunateSons stating that they intend to include it. AndyTheGrump (talk) 13:12, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

By that logic, almost all DOB should be removed. It is generally significant insofar as people use Wikipedia for information, such as her current age. Therefore, there is no reasonable argument against inclusion according to DOB and BLP. FortunateSons (talk) 13:34, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

If you wish to argue that WP:BLP policy stating that we "err on the side of caution" regarding including exact dates of birth etc be changed, you are welcome to do so. But not here. Meanwhile, that policy stands. AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:20, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

I don’t think it should be changed, I just don’t think it is an issue with the inclusion of the exact DOB here and not at all most every other page FortunateSons (talk) 14:31, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

I don't give a damn about whether you personally 'think it is an issue'. I have pointed out the policy, and you have given no policy-based justification whatsoever to include the exact date. The onus being on those wishing to include content obtaining consensus to do so is absolutely fundamental to the way Wikipedia works. AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:35, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

The benefit is knowing the exact age, which can be useful, for example insofar as it is included within news articles. FortunateSons (talk) 14:39, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

The people who have an exact DOB without an apparent reason including the other involved people Elise Stefanik, Christopher Rufo, her cousin Roxane Gay or her academic advisor Gary King. If you believe they all shouldn’t, than that is a perspective that you can advocate for, but it is clearly standard practice to include exact DOBs. FortunateSons (talk) 14:37, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Since you clearly haven't read WP:OTHERCONTENT, I suggest you do so. And I don't need to 'advocate' for existing policy. Not for WP:BLP. Not for WP:ONUS. Not for any of it. AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:44, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

You are right, I hadn’t.

Per WP:OTHERCONTENT, While these comparisons are not a conclusive test, they may form part of a cogent argument; an entire comment should not be dismissed because it includes a comparative statement like this. While comparing with other articles is not, in general, a convincing argument, comparing with articles that have been through some kind of quality review such as Featured article, Good article, or have achieved a WikiProject A class rating, makes a much more credible case, if the review does not pre-date policy changes that affect the material.

Good Articles featuring a DOB include Jeff Bezos, Guido Imbens, Richard Goldstone and many others.

Featured articles include Ben Affleck, Katy Perry, Buzz Aldrin, Liz Truss and others.

So, this is a clear indication that inclusion of a DOB is not generally an issue (except in cases of borderline significance or complaint, which are not apparent).

Therefore, there needs to be an argument in favour of including it, which is

Age is important for people including academics and public persons, which Claudine Gay is. Outside of public discourse, a use case may include news articles, many of which are quoted in the article. FortunateSons (talk) 15:15, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

This is not an argument, it is an assertion. I don't see a coherent argument in your posts above, just repeated assertions. Exact birth dates are of trivial significance in almost all biographies; with long-dead people there's no harm in including that kind of trivia, but with living people there's a good reason not to, namely, protecting the privacy of individuals. Nothing you've said gives an argument of even vaguely similar weight for including the information, even if it could be reliably sourced. --JBL (talk) 20:46, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Therefore, I believe that the standard described in WP:BLP and WP:DOB is met. FortunateSons (talk) 15:17, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

More WP:OTHERCONTENT. You have still provided precisely zero evidence to support any claim that Gay's exact date of birth is 'important'. Per WP:ONUS, please explain why you think her exact date of birth merits inclusion, beyond the fact that you have sources for it. As of now WP:ONUS has not been met. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:17, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I quoted WP:OTHERCONTENT to strengthen my arguments, with, to quote WP:OTHERCONTENT, a much more credible case.

Per WP:ONUS, I explained that including it is standard (use in articles considered excellent by Wikipedia), that it is information generally considered important (proof: use of her age in news articles) and that there is no argument for exclusion (per WP:DOB). Thereby, I have met the standard set forth by WP:ONUS. So, now you have to provide an argument why it shouldn’t be. FortunateSons (talk) 16:26, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Repeating exactly the same poor arguments you have already given doesn't constitute 'proof'. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:32, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Can we move this to the actual talk page where it belongs? FortunateSons (talk) 16:43, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

How about no? This is an ongoing discussion, and it would be far better, given that even the initial question as to the reliability of blackpast.org for the DoB seems not to have been resolved, to see whether anyone else has anything to say. There is no urgency over this, and most noticeboards leave discussions open far longer. AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:23, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Sure; just to clarify, what would an argument for the inclusion of a DOB for an academic or politician valid in your eyes? FortunateSons (talk) 20:56, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

A very good argument for inclusion of an exact DOB in a biography would be if either (1) there is something specifically birthday-related in the biography, or (2) if there were something specifically age-related in the biography (youngest such-and-such, or whatever). Of course it would be easy to source the exact date in these cases because it would inevitably come up in sources that discuss that aspect of the subject's life. These circumstances are rather rare -- but that's obvious, exact birthdays are almost always unimportant (imagine you found out that you were actually born 16 hours earlier or later than your parents had told you -- what would change?). --JBL (talk) 00:31, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

That makes sense, if that is the standard, then the DOB should not be included here.

Maybe that’s a dumb newcomer question, but why is it then included in so many other BLPs? FortunateSons (talk) 00:34, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

Personally I do not edit biographies a lot, but I imagine for the same reason that many Wikipedia articles have a tendency to attract trivia and cruft: someone comes along and says "I know a piece of information, let me add it to the article" without thinking very hard about what makes a good encyclopedia article. --JBL (talk) 19:21, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

That makes sense. If I see them, should I suggest removal or just leave it be? FortunateSons (talk) 19:30, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

My personal view is that going around trying to systematically fix something like this is likely to cause conflict and aggravation because some removals will be objected to by people not party to this discussion. (E.g. this happened a few times in the course of my efforts to remove Weekly World News as a source everywhere on Wikipedia, which was a fairly small job (just 100-200 articles) and about as clear-cut as such a thing can be.) I personally don't have the patience or temperment to deal well with that, so I instead work on integrating that kind of improvement into my normal editing. Other people may feel differently. (My approach is not good for solving a problem globally -- but Wikipedia is so big that that might be hopeless anyhow.) --JBL (talk) 21:16, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

You’re probably right, thank you for your patience! FortunateSons (talk) 21:26, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

If a subject complains about our inclusion of their date of birth, or the person is borderline notable, err on the side of caution and simply list the year, provided that there is a reliable source for it. This is the standard for including the specific date, which is met (no complaint, not borderline). As far as I can see, there is no other consideration except sourcing, which is the question at hand. FortunateSons (talk) 13:30, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

I am preferably looking to include a full DOB (which I believe is permissible under WP:DOB). The current sourcing is using logic from 2 ages in articles with some distance between them, which isn’t great as there is an appropriate source with blackpast.org FortunateSons (talk) 12:40, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

• Generally unreliable possibly deprecate. This site strikes me as very dubious. A quick look at some of the entries raises some red flags as well. For example, this entry on the Nation of Islam makes no mention at all of the group's notable antisemitism. The monetized nature of the site, where individuals, groups, and companies can "sponsor" entries (like the LDS church), also raises questions. Looking at their rosy LDS page, it would seem coverage may be influenced by sponsor. I see no statement about editorial independence or anything comparable. Entries on figures like Jay-Z read like press release puffery. If you can't find a better source, I would advise not including it in English Wikipedia. :bloodofox: (talk) 17:20, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

  With a Quick Look, I agree with your concerns regarding the articles in question, and the one on the Nation of Islam is very concerning. However, most other articles appear to be fine; is there a specific issue with the article on Claudine Gay? FortunateSons (talk) 18:05, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Just to note that WP:DOB requires that dates of birth have been widely published by reliable sources. Unless it's from an ABOUTSELF statement it's best to leave it out unless it's found in multiple sources.
Also this shouldn't be an RFC as it's hasn't been discussed before and an RFC isn't required for this one issue. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 17:25, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

This was not intended to be an RfC, just a general discussion using the same weighting. Did I use the wrong template? FortunateSons (talk) 17:31, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Discussions don't involve voting (Option 1, Option 2, etc). All you need to open a thread is a question, and it's best if it's one about a specific context. So "Is thislink entry at Blackopast.org reliable for Claudine Gay birth date?" would have been a better setup. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 17:40, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Ah, thank you, will do it the next time. Would “Is source reliable for information about person?” be a an acceptable format when discussing multiple articles, or do I have to ask separately? FortunateSons (talk) 17:44, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

"Is source reliable for specific type of information?" Would be fine, it's just better to be as specific as possible. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 18:01, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Ok, thank you! FortunateSons (talk) 18:06, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

The Perspective articles are likely reliable if possibly primary, as would be the hosted primary documents and transcripts of speeches. The biography entries I'm unsure of, and they would be a teritary source. There is some amount of user generated content going on, but I'm unable to tell exactly how that works. They do state sources, so tracking those down and using them instead could work. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 17:35, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, the user-generated contest is still reviewed through an editorial process:

https://www.blackpast.org/frequently-asked-questions-about-blackpast-org/

The criteria for submitting Perspective articles is more restricted. The contributor must possess a specialized academic knowledge or an extensive personal familiarity with the subject of the article.

''How are BlackPast.org entries and articles evaluated?

All submissions by contributors are reviewed by the website director and on occasion by members of the BlackPast.org Advisory Board. Each entry or article is also reviewed by copy editors to ensure they are grammatically and stylistically acceptable.

Does that provide enough information for an informed decision? FortunateSons (talk) 17:48, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

The first part you're quoting is about Perspective articles, not biography entries. The biography entries could be written by anyone. The from their How to write for Blackpast.org page Our contributors are in three broad categories: academic scholars, those who hold a faculty appointment in a two or four year college or a university; student scholars, those who are currently students in a two or four year college or university; and independent scholars, those who are at least 18 years of age and who have good research and writing skills.
Also from the same page All BlackPast.org articles are vetted for historical accuracy and copy-edited before they appear. BlackPast.org reserves the right to refuse any submitted entry that does not meet its standards for accuracy and objectivity. (all bolded in the original).
I would expect from that that the biography entries are reliable, but are still a WP:TERTIARY source when secondary are preferred. Also this still wouldn't overcome the "widely published" requirement for the specific date of birth -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 17:59, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

So, just to clarify: reliable but tertiary, so I would need more (how many?) reliable sources to include the DOB? FortunateSons (talk) 18:02, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

The requirement is widely published, I would take it as a sentiment rather than apply a hard limit to it. If you can find enough sources to satisfy you that that requirement is met, then it's met. Editors discretion and good judgement is encouraged. Other editors could disagree, in which case discussion is always a good thing. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 18:16, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Ok, thank you FortunateSons (talk) 18:19, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

• Generally unreliable, per Bloodofox, cites like that are prone to citogenesis. – SJ + 19:47, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
• Generally unreliable, per Bloodofox, user-generated content is as WP:RS as Wikipedia itself is. Deprecate.XavierItzm (talk) 17:08, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
• Generally reliable for the reasons described in my earlier comment: the existence of editorial review by the site administrator and the author, particularly in the case of the article being cited, being a subject matter expert in Black studies. P-Makoto (she/her) (talk) 18:49, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
• Comment. Given that this isn't a properly-formatted RfC on blackpast.org as a general source, that there seem to have been no significant previous discussions of the site on this noticeboard, and that most of the discussion above concerns the merits of the website as a source for one specific item, I don't consider it at all appropriate to make any general determination as to the reliability of the site at this time. The notice at the top of this page stating that RFCs for deprecation, blacklisting, or other classification should not be opened unless the source is widely used and has been repeatedly discussed exists for a reason. AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:08, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

  Yeah, this was a poorly used template by me, as discussed after the comment from ActivelyDisinterested at 17:25, 4 January 2024 (UTC). I intentionally did not call it RfC, but formatted it poorly, sorry about that. FortunateSons (talk) 19:19, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

  FortunateSons can I suggest you strike (<s></s>) the Options in your original post? It would help avoid any further confusion. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 20:29, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

  Good idea, I will FortunateSons (talk) 22:12, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

• Comment. Agreed with Andy that this shouldn't be an RfC, however I also don't see any reason to stop discussing it here in a general sense. The sponsorship and promo concerns brought up by bloodofox are extremely concerning if the source is being cited for material elsewhere.

JoelleJay (talk) 20:59, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

I’m new at this, and unfortunately don’t know how to search explicitly for citations in the English wiki.

There is this: Wikipedia:WikiProject Women in Red/Missing articles by dictionary/BlackPast, some sourcing on the German wiki such as https://de.m.wikipedia.org?pojem=Opal_Tometi (which of course is a seperate project), some minor sourcing on the article of the founderQuintard Taylor and for example here Associated Negro Press, here John E. Nailand here Louisianian (newspaper).

Most of those are historical and not BLP, so I’m not sure how much of an issue it really is FortunateSons (talk) 21:41, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

You can use this to search for uses of particular sources on WP. --JBL (talk) 21:56, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

That shows 1,940 result, can that be right? FortunateSons (talk) 22:16, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Looks right to me. And you're welcome! --JBL (talk) 17:15, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Thank you. I consider many of those pretty minor, do I/someone else have to do something about that? FortunateSons (talk) 17:32, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

That's a funny question to ask for a fully volunteer project -- none of us has to do anything here :). If you don't feel a sense of urgency (reasonable) then you are very free to not worry about it and spend your time here working on other things instead. --JBL (talk) 21:03, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

That is a good point. I might do it at some point, but it’s probably not very urgent :) FortunateSons (talk) 21:08, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Thank you! FortunateSons (talk) 22:19, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

You can search for the website's appearances on wiki with insource:blackpast.org. JoelleJay (talk) 21:58, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Thank you! FortunateSons (talk) 22:17, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

• Wąsosz pogrom (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• Is NBC News a suitable source for the following statements?

• In 1951, Marian Rydzewski was tried and acquitted for participating in the pogrom before a communist court.
• In 2014, Polish Jewish leaders were reportedly divided regarded exhumation of the bodies of the Jewish victims. Some, such as Poland's chief rabbai Michael Schudrich, are opposed due to the dignity of the dead. Others, such as Piotr Kadicik, the president of the Union of Jewish Religious Communities in Poland, support the exhumation.

I think the first item needs some improvement but not changes that will impact factual accuracy or pertinence of the source. Please note this is a WP:APL subject area. VQuakr (talk) 18:59, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

Per WP:RSP, NBC News is generally reliable so you should be fine. The Kip 19:11, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

Although academic sources are always preferred, I would say that it's reliable for those statements. The area is under sourcing restrictions so consensus is required, but unless I'm missing some other issue I can't see the issue in this specific case. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 19:58, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

yeah, sourcing is restricted, and for good cause. I removed NBC because the article is about a pogrom, more precisely a group accused of carrying one out. Not a film, which if notable should have its own article, and its own separate debate about whether it glorifies killing Jews. NBC is also not academic, as noted, and while it's sufficient for supporting the casting, that's not what the article is about. Or should be about. Notable as Daniel Craig may be, due weight would have us devote column inches to the dispute over who did the killings if anything.

other source I also removed presents a disputed statement of fact as an accurate premise (the IPN announcing that it wasn't Poles who did the killing, bthe ut Nazis). I think this is actually a great example of RL meeting policy though.

TL;DR the article is about horrifying racist carnage and should not be discussing fiction in any way shape or form. The word I am looking for is Disneyfication. Elinruby (talk) 08:09, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

@Elinruby: nearly your entire reply was about another source in another article. The NBC article is indeed about the pogrom, and certainly doesn't present Polish disbelief in Polish involvement in murder as fact. VQuakr (talk) 18:38, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Elinruby are you looking at the right reference? This is about this article, which isn't about a film, but specifically about the Wąsosz pogrom. Also the context isn't about responsibility of the polgrom or any comments from IPN, only whether a certain trial happened in 1951 (there's probably an academic source for this) and the differing views of two Jewish organisations (for which this NBC article is reliable). -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 20:00, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

I agree with The Kip and ActivelyDisinterested that for these statements, on this article, the NBC News article looks reliable. P-Makoto (she/her) (talk) 18:46, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

NBC, not to be confused with MSNBC and CNBC, is one of my preferred news sources. I would exercise normal precautions, and when in doubt, use attributed opinions (especially for NBC News THINK, their opinion section) InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 23:01, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

An argument is being made that all sources listed in the article reporting a result that is a stalemate/inconclusive are passing mentions that fail WP:CONTEXTMATTERS. Further input at the RfC would be appreciated. Cinderella157 (talk) 12:30, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

@Cinderella157: it would be better if we listed the sources here, one by one, and then let the community opine on their reliability. VR _talk 16:30, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

I cannot determine the reliability of Boston.com's "Readers Say" articles. The site earns some cachet as a sibling of The Boston Globe, and the quality of material seems acceptable, but I can't tell what the editorial rubric is for these articles. Are they unvetted authors getting to write amok, or are they developed by the site from prompts or comments sent in by their readers? Can I get a ruling on this? — Fourthords | =Λ= | 04:17, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

The authors of those pieces seem to be staff writers, but I wouldn't lend too much weight to the opinion surveys and quotes of random people — that is best left for specialized pollsters. Ca ^{talk to me!} 13:29, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Excellent, thanks so much! — Fourthords | =Λ= | 16:45, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

I agree, but would be extra careful wherever WP:BLP is involved, up to and including using a different source. It’s probably also best to cite the actual source in the text, not just in a footnote. FortunateSons (talk) 18:10, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

This website is WP:SPS and WP:UGC and I think that it should never be used. See https://militaryhallofhonor.com/membership.php

• It is a self-published source: "Who is responsible for the Military Hall of Honor? Charles A. Lewis, a veteran that honorably served in the U.S. Army, is the founder of MHOH. With a hobby as a military researcher / historian, he has compiled thousands of biographies ..."
• When it is not a self-published source it is UGC: "MHOH limits editorial rights for Honoree Records to Registered Members only. ... A community of users interested in honoring those who have honored us will ensure that these records are as accurate as possible." Further, on the homepage: "Here we provide members a place to create Honoree records that are available for anyone to view, free of charge"
  • See user profiles:
    • "Deemax"
    • "bakerd13"
    • etc.

So Charles A. Lewis has created some entries, various registered users have created others, and the commuinity of users works to ensure accuracy. It is used in dozens of articles, but perhaps not that many for me to start an RfC. What do you think? —Alalch E. 18:48, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

It appears clear from their membership FAQ that this is user generated content, Joining is easy, simply click on the register link above and enter a first and last name, a user name, password, and e-mail address. An e-mail will be sent to you with a link to follow for verification purposes. Now just log in and start entering an Honoree record! I can't find evidence that Charles A. Lewis meets the requirements for WP:SPS either. This is another hobbiest/enthusiast sites that falls short of being a reliable source. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 19:48, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

Seconding AD, this appears to be another dime-a-dozen milhist enthusiast site. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 04:37, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Third for AD., I would strongly recommend against using it a reliable source. FortunateSons (talk) 18:13, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

So if you don’t check the news often (like me), you might have missed it. Earlier this morning, the Associated Press (AP News) ran a story where they stated the following: Harvard president's resignation highlights new conservative weapon against colleges: plagiarism (via post on 𝕏). The news article’s headline today originally was titled Harvard president quits: Claudine Gay resignation highlights new conservative weapon, which has since been changed to be titled Plagiarism charges downed Harvard’s president. A conservative attack helped to fan the outrage.

This isn’t an RfC as one isn’t warranted, given AP isn’t a source on the plagiarism article. Per very clear Wikipedia consensus combined with actual academic study consensus, AP News is widely considered to be accurate. That said, given the development today, I think we need a discussion about whether or not AP should be considered unreliable on the topic of plagiarism (i.e. no future usage on that article only).

Several sources have posted articles on this AP News headline as well: Fox News (considered unreliable), Daily Wire (considered unreliable), Independent Journal Review (No discussions on WP:RSP), New American (considered unreliable), Pipa News (Nothing at WP:RSP), Disclose.tv (On 𝕏), Elon Musk commenting after the AP News post on 𝕏 linked above was community noted.

If you haven’t followed the Harvard President’s topic over the last month, there is a lot of articles (from RS sources) about the plagiarism. Here are the ones linked in that Community Note: PBS, Axios, NY Times, The Hill, Harvard University.

Given the weird article from AP News, I personally think we (Wikipedia) should consider them unreliable on the sole topic of plagiarism, as they seem to be the only RS source considering it to be political. Even sources known to be on the American “political left” (NY Times is an example) don’t make it political and just say she was wrong. Again, this is not an RfC as AP is not currently even a source on the plagiarism article, but the discussion is better to have now for the future. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 19:06, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

You don't consider the Claudine Gay situation to be "political"? Here's an RS, Politico, with the headline yesterday "Republicans claim victory for Harvard president’s resignation". – Muboshgu (talk) 19:09, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

I do. However, even Politico says, “Republican lawmakers welcomed Harvard University president Claudine Gay’s resignation after weeks of calling for her to step down over her response to antisemitism on campus — and her testimony on the topic at a fiery House hearing in December. That is about the antisemitism remarks. That aspect is political. Until the AP News article today, I had yet to see RS about the plagiarism (not antisemitism) to be political. That is what I mean. AP News made the plagiarism independent of the antisemitism political, which was a first. That is what this discussion is for. Ignore the President Gay/antisemitism controversy for this discussion. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 19:12, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

I think the AP article has it completely right. NY Times calls it a the plagiarism a "proxy fight", and Politico (different article than the above) sees it as well. This was the work of Christopher Rufo, who used the idea that Gay committed plagiarism to erode faith in an Ivy League university. Time magazine refers to this as Rufo's Alarming and Deceptive Crusade. Rufo has admitted to all of this. "We launched the Claudine Gay plagiarism story from the Right. The next step is to smuggle it into the media apparatus of the Left, legitimizing the narrative to center-left actors who have the power to topple her. Then squeeze." (tweeted on December 19). – Muboshgu (talk) 19:24, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

I agree with Muboshgu's summary of this. I think AP News remains reliable, including for the topic of plagiarism. P-Makoto (she/her) (talk) 19:31, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

I, too, have no problem with APs reliability regarding plagiarism. In my view, this entire matter has been thoroughly politicized and weaponized from the very beginning. Cullen328 (talk) 19:37, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

Sounds good y'all! Amid the political dispute then, I thought it best to bring it up here at least. Consensus remains that AP is reliable in all topics. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 20:15, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

This is a good example of why we disregard headlines... Especially in the modern era when multiple titles can be A-B tested in real time. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 05:44, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

As originally published the article read: "On X, formerly Twitter, he wrote “SCALPED,” as if Gay was a trophy of violence, invoking a gruesome practice taken up by white colonists who sought to eradicate Native Americans." Later on "and also used by some tribes against their enemies." was added. Whether this was changed because of the ridicule on X or someone at AP independently realising what ahistorical nonsense this was would be interesting to know. The authors would have done well to glance at Scalping. —Simon Harley (Talk). 10:15, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

That isn't "ahistorical nonsense," both statements are true one just has more context. What the heck are you talking about? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 13:06, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Indeed, headlines are unreliable. It should also follow—in my opinion—that social media posts by an organisation promoting an article are unreliable. Only the article itself is what we should be using for factual claims. — Bilorv (talk) 11:55, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

I don't find the AP article weird. I see nothing in it to make us consider it unreliable. The headline and tweet is never the source, so I see no problem here. BobFromBrockley (talk) 12:13, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

As a general and unfortunate principle, anything can be political - e.g. Climate Change. I don't see anything exceptional about AP's report. BilledMammal (talk) 13:10, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

There's usually a shortcut for all instances, and it's true in this case WP:HEADLINES. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 17:16, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Just to reinforce what others are saying - a headline isn't a source, and reputable organizations routinely tweak headlines for a variety of reasons. Absolutely no reason to consider discouraging use of AP on any topic as proposed in OP. VQuakr (talk) 17:21, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

I agree with most other comments, the headline is questionable, but AP should be still be considered a reliable source for plagiarism. FortunateSons (talk) 18:16, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

User:Alexiscoutinho insists on using Russian propaganda channels from Telegram as a source 19. When I tried to remove these (a good bit of info was double cited anyway) I was told to, quote, “get over it”.

This particular channel specifically was anonymous, until an outside investigation revealed its ties to Wagner Group’s Yevgeny Prigozhin (yes, the mercenary group full of neo Nazis, who then mutinied against Putin etc.). The administrators of the channel have repeatedly made false claim, including who they were, putting forth fake identities.

The administrators of the channel themselves have said that “They work(…) in the field of information warfare and counterpropaganda in the name of the interests of the Russian state.” 20

Call me crazy but that does not appear to be anywhere close to being a reliable source, and an editor who insist on using such sources probably should be kept away from the topic area altogether. Volunteer Marek 21:09, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

We can't trust Wikipedians individual judgement with anonymous Telegram posts like this. This is what journalism is for. Basically zero reason to ever cite Telegram directly. Hemiauchenia (talk) 21:19, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

There were better ways to fix that issue instead of just deleting everything like that without any discussion. I've mostly used it as a support source together with ISW reports in that cities list page to explain specific dates when the ISW wasn't really clear about them in the reports. If one requested for me to substitute them, I could do it no problem when I had the extra time. Your assessment should take into account this context and my history of helpful edits in that page. Please don't fall in the "witch hunt" trap. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 21:35, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

@Volunteer Marek: You are over generalizing this. Despite all those problems, which I'm not going to deny because I don't know them very well, it is still a generally reliable source for territorial changes. And I'm not talking about the Wikipedia definition of reliable, I'm talking about the common sense/casual usage of the word. I follow that channel and ISW's reports almost daily and I can attest that those sources go inline with each other almost all the time. There's been a long time that I don't hear something (territorial changes) that Rybar said that was debunked by ISW. When they diverge, it's usually when there isn't a lot of geolocated footage constraining the maps. Rybar is also one of the most conservative Russian milbloggers when it comes to territorial changes. In fact, he was one of the few if not the only one who originally denied the Russian claim that Marinka was captured on December 1. So yeah, I understand your point that he isn't the best source for Wikipedia main space articles, that's why I put {{bsn}} in the battle page, but in that list page I really don't see a problem. In fact, I don't even think the RS guideline really applies to such pages. It was never really meant to be perfect and it will probably be deleted in the future when all the info contained in it goes to the individual mainspace articles. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 21:27, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

I am not “over generalizing” anything. Very specifically and particularly, Rybar, a self proclaimed Russian nationalist propaganda channel, is not reliable source. I don’t know what “common sense” or “casual” definition of reliable source you have in mind, but that’s actually irrelevant as on Wikipedia we have an established policy, WP:RS and this source doesn’t satisfy it. Not even in the least.

Of course WP:RS applies to such pages. We’re getting into WP:CIR territory here. Volunteer Marek 21:31, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

That page was never meant to fully conform to Wikipedia's quality standards. It's a fast paced page aimed to help the map Module. When the war is over, it will probably be deleted. When the situation of each battle cools down, those citations could all be substitutes with actual reliable sources. I've done that multiple times in battle articles (the battle of Marinka is the only exception that I remember because I was simply confident that when the ISW report comes withing a few hours it would fully confirm those claims). I could be wrong, in which case I would obviously correct it, but that seems quite unlikely as geolocated footage exists and clearly confirms the claim. When the report comes, I planned to substitute it with the report as source, hence the correct usage of {{bsn}} to portray the temporary nature of that citation. Going back to the list page, even if those Rybar citations weren't substituted when better sources were available, it wouldn't be a problem because most entries are deleted anyways when the frontline moves far away from those villages and cities. Thus, I think you guys are overblowing the proportion of this and also not "assuming good faith". Dialogue is always a good first step when you find something wrong, not accusing others of "pushing propaganda" and threatening to sanction the editor. About the "get over it" comment, I'm sorry about that, what motivated it was the shock of such a huge revert without notice/warning. Once again, I think "assuming good faith" there and starting a dialogue there would have been the best action. Also note that several editors there showed no concern with those edits of mine for months. Thus I was quite "angry" at your bold revert. Once again, it doesn't justify the "get over it", but I hope you understand where I (that mindset) was comming from. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 21:48, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

If a "page was never meant to fully conform to Wikipedia's quality standards", then it shouldn't be part of Wikipedia; it's that simple. Wikipedia is not a newspaper, not a repository for breaking news, not a collection of primary sources. Verifiability is one of our pillars. BobFromBrockley (talk) 12:50, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

👍 Alexis Coutinho (talk) 12:57, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

Deprecate Russian telegram as they are never reliable, and should not be used for ANYTHING. Andre🚐 21:47, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

All rules/guidelines exist for a reason/motif. Simply repeating/parroting it for any and all contexts doesn't seem very helpful and productive. Please familiarize yourself with the context. But with that being said though, I am indeed willing to stop using it from now on there if it indeed is deemed unfit (after a proper analysis of context). But I vehemently disagree with any form of sanction ignoring WP:AGF. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 21:53, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

Anonymous Telegram channels obviously can not be used as reliable sources. Sometimes these "Z military correspondents" channels get referred to by reliable sources (not by sources which only report social media), then I guess they can be mentioned. Ymblanter (talk) 21:35, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

Do you even know the context of those edits? Alexis Coutinho (talk) 21:37, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

WP:RS applies to all mainspace pages. Andre🚐 21:48, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

• Literally nothing on Telegram would be a reliable source, nor would anything on any other social media outside of BLPs in an WP:ABOUTSELF piece of info or, in rare occasions, official news accounts on social media reporting on something. Other than that, anything on social media would not be reliable unless a reliable source, such as the news, reports on it. And, in those cases, you would be citing the news article instead. Silverseren^C 21:50, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
• I agree with the other editors here: Telegram channels like these are certainly not RS (and I'm strugglng to think of any "context" that would make these acceptable). Look for reliable secondary sources (like Reuters) instead. Neutrality^talk

• Guys, I know Telegram in general is not a RS according to Wikipedia guidelines. Please consider the context of where they were used. That page is a dynamic and fast paced list and pretty much all information there is temporary (settements far from the frontline are deleted and the whole page will probably be deleted when the war is over and individual main space articles are created). It is also not linked in any article and its only purpose, afaik, is to support the map Module, as a "writing board" (because it's much better to use wikitext and tables instead of writing citations and keeping track of historic changes in Lua comment strings). With that being said, I think the most adequate solution would be to make that page an exception/make it exempt from these more rigorous RS rules (i.e. let those lesser sources be usable, but obviously recommend substituting them with better sources when available). The map template doc itself said something like "big claims require great evidence", but no "big claims" were made there using only these "unreliable" sources (these big claims are kept as wikitext comments, check them yourselves). With all this in mind, I don't see a reason to make such "a big fuss" over this. I already give preference to citing ISW anyways. Thanks. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 00:39, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

I think someone should add “…not a OSINT aggregator” to WP:NOT. Yes, that’s a more general problem with some of these articles. But regardless, Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and we stick with our WP:RS policy. Volunteer Marek 00:44, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

But regardless That's the problem, you don't want to consider the context. It's like a judge who already has a veredict in mind and just applies the sentence without even looking at the evidence and defender's statements. That's just applying rules for the sake of applying them. It doesn't make Wikipedia any better because nobody is even reading that page (just editors) and because the map will still be the same (it doesn't show references for each marker). Alexis Coutinho (talk) 00:52, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

There's no rule on RS only applying to readers, not editors. I understand what you're saying that it's for internal use, but if that's the case, create a page in Project space or User space. Andre🚐 00:54, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

Alright. One last doubt, does purposely keeping the {{unreliable}} banner on that page make it exempt from these more rigorous rules? Alexis Coutinho (talk) 01:04, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

No, those are cleanup tags. They don't exempt articles from policy, especially one as fundamental as this. They exist to provide cleanup tasks in a maintenance queue. By putting that tag, you're telling a volunteer to COMEFIXIT. Andre🚐 01:12, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

👌 Alexis Coutinho (talk) 01:25, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

Quite aside from that Alexis, we shouldn't be providing readers an off link to a source of propaganda that is unreliable, as a reference let alone any kind of external link. I'm not saying you need a sanction or anything for this, just please adjust and move on accordingly, there's a clear consensus not to use Telegram links from Russia for anything, and I wonder if we should consider adding them to the spam blocklist. Andre🚐 00:47, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

👍 Thanks for the well rounded response. I mostly agree, but there is a caveat/I have a question: we shouldn't be providing readers what readers? That page is not really meant to be accessed by readers. It's more like a dev/internal page. For us editors, being shown such questionable sources is not potentially harmful in any way. We as editors know how to treat those sources and we know their limitations. Already answered above Alexis Coutinho (talk) 00:59, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

You write that the list is “dynamic and fast paced” and “pretty much all information there is temporary.” But that’s not a reason to suspend, or even loosen, application of our RS policy. In fact, the whole point of the RS policy is to be conservative: if a reliable source is not available, we simply don’t cover it in the encyclopedia. Put differently, it’s better to be slow and deliberate — to wait for sources to develop — than to rush (and thus risk inaccuracy, or even the appearance of unreliability). Neutrality^talk 02:13, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

👌 I've already addressed the issue. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 02:27, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

• In no way is this a reliable source. Wait until independent reliable sources pick it up. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 14:14, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

• Comment. I agree with everyone above that such Telegram channels are not RS, but there is a wider issue. I think that after Russian 2022 war censorship laws, which resulted in a significant number of convictions, all sources published in Russia starting from 2022 are not RS on the subjects related to wars conducted by Russia. My very best wishes (talk) 18:42, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

  Mega claim. You can't just generally try to sanction all sources from a country. Don't forget that Ukrainian sources are also censored. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 19:04, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

  We routinely deprecate sources that are simply mouthpieces for repressive states. Black Kite (talk) 19:30, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

  Correct, but their point isnt wrong that we cant blanket sanction all sources from a country. Case by case, if they are acting as mouthpeices of any state we can and should sanction. Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 08:42, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

  While we don't have an article about it, the Ukrainian government has imposed quite a lot of restrictions on the media as well (see here). It doesn't mean that we shouldn't use them at all. Our editors can and should exercise judgement and decide whether a given source is reliable for a specific claim. For the avoidance of doubt, anonymous telegram channels are certainly not reliable. Alaexis_¿question? 08:55, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

  👍 Alexis Coutinho (talk) 12:38, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

• Comment. But, as usual, we can cite secondary RS that cited such Telegram channels. My very best wishes (talk) 18:29, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

Newsweek and Business Insider (low quality mainstream news sources) have occassionally used Rybar as a source, with a pinch of salt. Where they have done, I guess there might be a reason to cite them, with clear attribution, but we should never cite Rybar directly. Some background: https://en.thebell.io/pro-war-media/ https://thebell.io/unmasking-russia-s-influential-pro-war-rybar-telegram-channel https://meduza.io/en/feature/2022/11/18/who-s-behind-rybar https://meduza.io/en/news/2022/11/19/the-bell-releases-the-name-of-the-creator-of-telegram-channel-rybar https://meduza.io/en/news/2022/10/14/russian-military-command-complains-about-fake-news-from-pro-kremlin-war-bloggers https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/new-atlanticist/russian-war-report-pro-kremlin-telegram-channels-twist-iaea-words/ https://www.ndc.nato.int/research/research.php?icode=794 BobFromBrockley (talk) 12:58, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

• Comment: Social media outlets are self-published channels and are not used as sources in wikipedia. Shadowwarrior8 (talk) 23:09, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

• I don't know on what planet any competent editor could ever consider anything on Telegram to be reliable save for WP:ABOUTSELF and even then I'd have really big doubts given the difficulty with verifiability and services like Telegram. I was recently doing some NPP on a article about a Kurdish neo-Nazi group and the article was littered with links to Telegram and I didn't think twice about removing every last one of them even though it could have been argued that they might pass WP:ABOUTSELF precisely because of my concerns about verifiability. TarnishedPath^talk 11:54, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

I agree, outside of a few edge cases mentioned by others that do not appear to be met here, nothing from a telegram channel can be considered a WP:RS.

If it is actually important and verifiable information, it would have been reported by a reliable source. FortunateSons (talk) 18:25, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

I know for the most part social media posts are not reliable sources, but what about if someone posts on their Twitter or Instagram account wishing someone a happy birthday and the person in question responds? Is that an exception or is that considered unreliable as well? Kcj5062 (talk) 22:40, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Just in case someone finds this later: In my opinion, this would be fine per WP:DOB: A verified social media account of an article subject saying about themselves something along the lines of "today is my 50th birthday" may fall under self-published sources for purposes of reporting a full date of birth. It may be usable if there is no reason to doubt it¹. FortunateSons (talk) 23:54, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

EDIT: NVM. I read the Instagram post I'm referring to wrong. It's actually the subject's account. Kcj5062 (talk) 22:55, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Hello all, After the consensus that Simple Flying is unreliable (I've summarized in an essay here), I've been slowly working on purging citations to the site. In the process, I came across information sourced to planecrashinfo.com which also does not strike me as a reliable source. I removed the citation but checked and saw that the site is cited over 300 times on Wikipedia. Given that, bringing it here for discussion to make sure others agree with my assessment of the source. Avgeekamfot (talk) 18:53, 8 January 2024 (UTC) Zdroj:https://en.wikipedia.org?pojem=Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_424
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