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State of Terror

An editor has removed all traces of State of Terror from an article I recently created: 1946 British Embassy bombing. Per this discussion the best "rationale" the editor had for removing the book was because the author plays the violin. The book has a publisher; it is not self-published and bases its research on documents from the time period. Because of 1RR, I would appreciate if we can clear this up swiftly and someone can help with reverting the editor.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 19:54, 8 May 2018 (UTC)

Please stop disrupting my words.The author has no qualification in history/terrorism.The only information I found about him that he is professional violinist it doesn't give him any expertise on this matter.Also the book publisher is not academic.Also per past discussions we usually avoid authors even if published by major publishing house if they have no expertise on the matter Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_11#Bostom_and_Prometheus_books--Shrike (talk) 19:58, 8 May 2018 (UTC)
A pro-Palestinian activist who is a music teacher (taught music in Gaza for two years while writing the book, per the book) and motivated to write the book by cast lead in 2009... Not self published, but published by Skyscraper Publications which described itself as "Skyscraper is an independent publisher with a simple remit: ​to seek out and publish interesting books that defy genre, challenge convention, or have been overlooked by larger publishers.". So... A highly BIASED source (by self admission), by a non expert (music teacher), published by a non-academic publisher.... Nope, would not be a RS for history.Icewhiz (talk) 20:04, 8 May 2018 (UTC)

taught music in Gaza for two years while writing the book, per the book

Is that meant to insinuate that he mixes with Hamas terrorists? The facts are that he taught in Jerusalem and the West Bank, and, being denied access for two years by the Israeli authorities to teach in Gaza, he instructed students there by Skype. Nishidani (talk) 16:26, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
Ah, the tag-teaming has come here too. No matter, I can easily replace the source. Carry on or someone else can close this.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 20:10, 8 May 2018 (UTC)
You unsubstantiated WP:NPA and WP:ASPERSIONS are disruptive--Shrike (talk) 20:13, 8 May 2018 (UTC)
I suggest you redact that unwarranted WP:ASPERSIONS - I was alerted to this by your own edits - TGS.Icewhiz (talk) 20:19, 8 May 2018 (UTC)
"Unwarrented", indeed. Redacted.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 20:25, 8 May 2018 (UTC)
You're misrepresenting what user:Shrike said. (S)he didn't say that the "rationale ... for removing the book was because the author plays the violin," (s)he said that playing the violin was the only credential proffered by the author (true, at first blush), and that credential was not relevant to the claims of the book (also true). - Simon Dodd { U·T·C·WP:LAW } 20:29, 8 May 2018 (UTC)
And both Icewhiz and misrepresented the few sources they read. As shown below, he has published several books on historical cartography. Agreed that his playing the violin is not relevant to the claims of the book. But the suppression of the fact he has a record as a well published archival historian is peculiar.Nishidani (talk) 16:29, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
@TheGracefulSlick:
What is the information that you want to source with this book ?
I am confident it can be found in Charles Enderlin, Par le feu et par le sang, Albin Michel, 2008.
Pluto2012 (talk) 05:47, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
  • I almost invariably agree with Pluto’s high bar standards for articles on history, but this is more complex (that high bar is lacking in editors’ preference for mainstream newspaper reports, that are decidedly bias). Suarez is among other things, a reliably published historian
  • The challenge to the publishing house ignores the fact that the book’s US edition came out under an Olive Branch Press imprint, which specializes in ‘"socially and politically relevant non-fiction", with an emphasis on non-Western material.’ The evidence that the author has been subject to a virulent smear campaign by two bloggers, regularly picked up in regional newspapers, and invariably found to be based on false insinuations, is relevant in assessing how we handle this. I looked at the following reviews. My impression is that Suarez addresses even these critics calmly. It counts for something that Suarez has been invited to talk at the University of Massachusetts Amherst, Columbia University in New York, at the Jerusalem Fund, at SOAS, University of London, You can evaluate this with these youtube selections here and here.

You don’t graduate from the Juilliard School by being mediocre. He is a writer, not only a violinist and cartographic historian. I.e.

How has it been reviewed?

An independent scholar, he spent years mining the British National Archives at Kew. His book is based primarily on declassified British documents covering the British Palestine Mandate (officially 1923-48; de facto 1920-48) through the 1948 war and thereafter.

’vitriolic’ ‘anti-Isrraeli’. Relying primarily on an array of hostile British government sources to bolster his indictment, Suárez provides a tedious recounting of every Irgun and Lehi attack during and after the World War II years. It seems never to occur to him that his primary source base might have had an anti-Zionist bias.

Note that Auerbach, a professional historian, provides not one note challenging any one of Suarez’s sources. Inbdeed, clumsily for an historian, he blames Suarez's archival evidence as 'hostile' to Zionism and therefore invalid. (sigh) He admits it is based on an exhaustive account of Irgun and Lehi terroristic assaults in British government archives, but protests that reading this vast array of incidents is tedious. Like saying that reading any of the numerous historiographies of Israeli or Jewish suffering at the hands of terrorists or regimes is ‘tedious’. It is a virulent dismissal based on distaste, on trying to skew the author’s interpretation of a phenomenon that is largely missing from the standard Zionist narrative. Auerbach wrote a book (Hebron Jews: Memory and Conflict in the Land of Israel 2009) sympathetic to a settler group in Hebron most sources state is one of the most virulently anti-Arab movements of settlement in the West Bank.

  • Sanford R. Silverburg, Review in Middle East Media and Book Reviews Online. Volume: 5 Issue: 7 July 2017. He is professor of political science at Catawba College

The politically violent orientation of two Jewish organizations operating in mandated Palestine is the focus of State Terror. Suarez, a writer and musician, based in London strains credulity by taking the obviously odious activities of the Irgun and Lehi, aka Stern Gang, and equating them to the overall effort of the Jewish Agency in Palestine to seek and work for an independent Jewish state. Each attack by these two focused groups is highlighted with graphic exaggeration in an attempt to sour the entire Zionist enterprise. There is a contribution to be credited, namely the documentation of some number of incidents during the mandate period, supported by a wealth of British archival material, however without consultation with the relevant Irgun and Lehi archival outlets. This is a clear and intense attempt to delegitimize Zionist ideology and in doing so change the traditional historiographic interpretation on the creation of Israel. The author would have the reader consider that there has been a pattern of settler colonialism qua imperialism in place. Some will view this work as a polemic while others can reach a reasonable conclusion of revisionist historical interpretation.

No details of errors, but a balanced snippet overview. There's nothing wrong with revisionist readings of history: it's what all progress in scholarship does.

A tour de force, based on diligent archival research that looks boldly at the impact of Zionism on Palestine and its people in the first part of the 20th century. The book is the first comprehensive and structured analysis of the violence and terror employed by the Zionist movement, and later the state of Israel, against the people of Palestine.

This is archival history that has been intentionally forced down the memory hole – by Zionist organisations, by Israel and by British officials – for very good reason. It risks reminding us that Israel emerged out of an unholy alliance between, on the one hand, British anti-semites and colonial officials and, on the other, Jewish ethnic supremacists who had adopted for themselves the ugly ideology of Europe’s racial nationalists.US intelligence officials in the Middle East, points out Suarez, understood the roots of Zionist ideology. In a report in 1943, they concluded that Zionism in Palestine was “a type of nationalism which in any other country would be stigmatised as retrograde Nazism”.

  • There is one ostensible attempt to deal with the book on its own terms, archival evidence. It is self-published, and the authors have no credentials worthy of respect. This is important only because it is the source for rumours that Suarez’s book is dripping with antisemitic venom, a claim made by even some faculty staff at Amherst University where he gave a talk.

David Collier) (a pro-Israeli activist and polemical blogger obsessed with the idea the British Labour Party is antisemitic)and Jonthan Hoffman a pro-Israel blogger and activist, both undertook a lengthy scathing critique in their 'A Report on a modern anti-Semitic fraud,'. They actually went to the trouble of checking a smidgeon (as they admit:Of the nearly 700 footnotes they admit to only checking a small sample, dealing with 4 issues.) of his archival work in the appropriate archives. Jonathan Hoffman made a complaint about the book to the House of Lords, which was dismissed as false.

The findings of this research were brutal. The distortion created within the book’s argument is drawn from every level of error imaginable. The author made basic historical research mistakes, such as an overreliance on, and disproportionate inclusion of, ideologically selected material. In addition - and more worryingly - the source material for the most part contradicts the author’s writing. And finally, there are several clear examples of such total distortion and inversion of meaning that it is difficult to conclude anything other than deliberate intent.

The online polemic here is a self-deconstructing farce, as I can show if proof is required. Collier and Hoffman’s evidence complains of a lack of detail of Arab violence during the 1936–1939 Arab revolt in Palestine, whereas Suarez is focused on the archival record for the succeeding decade Jewish insurgency in Mandatory Palestine (1939-1948)

Suarez thanked them for the review and then in return gave a detailed analysis of their claims, finding them abusive, consistently distorting the content of his books, denying the archival factual record and thus unsound.

My view is that the book can be used with attribution (and Suarez needs a wiki bio).Nishidani (talk) 11:07, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

Summary of TLDR - a musician-activist wrote a book. Those who agree with his activism lauded it, those who did not - criticized it. A history book this is not. Oh - the British archives, as the British authorities at the time, were highly hostile to the Irgun which they saw as a terror organization acting againdt them - no sigh needed.Icewhiz (talk) 14:36, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
Seconded. Not RS.- Simon Dodd { U·T·C·WP:LAW } 14:40, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
Kindly do not vote before assessing the evidence and giving arguments. Those of Icewhiz - who confesses he hasn't read the evidence- are predictable, being an involved editor and we need neutral input. Icewhiz just repeats that the author is just a musician: that is patently incorrect, since he has published several well-received and reliably published history books, requiring archival work, if in another field. Scholars so far appear to admire it, dismiss it without challenging his evidence, or say some of it is invaluable, but that it polemically challenges the standard Zionist history of the period (as do most mainstream history books, in Israel and abroad). Then we have two bloggers who make a total mess of an extremely skimpy reading of a few bits in the book, and that is used for the usual hysterical campaign of 'anti-semitism' against its author. I.e. some serious scholars and area specialists consider it a valuable or provocative addition, and the rest just shout hysterically.Nishidani (talk) 15:08, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
... and for an example of Hoffman shouting hysterically (literally), see <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0aaCXhu_2A4>. --NSH001 (talk) 16:55, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
None of the above explains why a person whose expertise is playing the violin and who wrote a book that was published by "independent publishers" is a reliable source for facts (or even why his opinion would matter). Other than that some bloggers don't like him but others do, which is neither here nor there. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 17:09, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
I.e. you didn't read the evidence. His primary training was as a violinist. Professionally he had written well received historical books, based on archival research. The viloin-gambit is like dismissing relativity theory because Einstein regularly plained in in quartets. The American publisher is a reliable academic venue, and not 'independent' (of what? pressure from the usual lobbies?) If there is a problem with the book, its sourcing, and its methodology, competent pro-Zionist scholars will bring that up. So far, none has, to my knowledge. Academically, when you don't have an adequate answer to a densely documented booki argument, you stay mum, hoping the book just dies. One should be careful here, because the evidence is everywhere that official attempts were made to smear the author, even going as far as the House of Lords, which found no breach of honour in Baronness Tonge's use of a room there to speak about the book. Now let's here independent judges.Nishidani (talk) 17:24, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
Einstein had a PhD in Physics while playing in quartets. What are Suarez's academic credentials? No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 17:36, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
None that I can see. I've removed the book from the article.- Simon Dodd { U·T·C·WP:LAW } 17:48, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
  • Not a reliable source for anything except the author's personal opinion. This is a book by a non-notable partisan activist, Thomas Suárez. The sole review that I found in a scholarly journal is in the Arab Studies Quarterly, a journal founded by Edward Said and Ibrahim Abu-Lughod and published by the anti-Israel Pluto Press The review is written by Elaine C. Hagopian, a retired professor and anti-Israel activist who approvingly cites Suarez's bizarre assertion that, in post - WWII Europe "thousands of Jewish children were forcibly removed from the adoptive families that had saved them when their parents perished years earlier, the kidnappings sometimes assisted by Jewish Brigade soldiers." The idea that soldiers of the Jewish Brigade or other unidentified Zionists forcibly entered and removed Jewish children from the homes of Christian families who has saved them from the death camps is so bizarre as to firmly classify both Hagopian and Suarez as part of a WP:FRINGE of anti-Israel revisionist historians. More to the point is the fact that the sole review is in a minor, politically partisan journal. No major media reviewed the book, such reviews and press as exist: split along predictable pro- or anti-Israel lines. But there are no reviews in major anti-Israel media like The Guardian that migh show that this book is to be take seriously. Hardly surprising. History is complicated and reliable history is rarely written by an activist who decides to write a book. if he did "spent years mining the British National Archives at Kew" (as the Hagopian review states,) he seems to have published a book filled with Fool's Gold.E.M.Gregory (talk) 18:22, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
Could the usual predictable line up of involved editors leave this to neutral parties. All we are getting here is googled smears from the usual hate website. I.e. E. M. Gregory's

bizarre assertion that, in post - WWII Europe "thousands of Jewish children were forcibly removed from the adoptive families that had saved them when their parents perished years earlier, the kidnappings sometimes assisted by Jewish Brigade soldiers." The idea that soldiers of the Jewish Brigade or other unidentified Zionists forcibly entered and removed Jewish children from the homes of Christian families who has saved them from the death camps is so bizarre as to firmly classify both Hagopian and Suarez as part of a WP:FRINGE of anti-Israel revisionist historians.

is dead wrong. Suarez did not assert anything. He documented from archival sources and contemporary accounts the outrage felt by many Jews (Œuvre de secours aux enfants) and Christians for Rabbi Yitzhak HaLevi Herzog's attempts to force Jewish children in their care to be taken to Palestine, rather than to be raised in Europe. This is in the documents he lists, and is not claimed, asserted or invented (unless an historian can demonstrate, which no one has so far, that he made it all up). History is not the province of a state: it is not to be sifted to confirm a national myth or mythistory. Nishidani (talk) 21:28, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

Molecular Biology (journal) (correct journal is Molecular Autism)

A single new article in Molecular Biology (journal) published by Nauka (publisher) (Russia) is being used in Hans Asperger for fairly strong claims about the person. This article has not been referred to in other reliable sources, except by Press Release. Is the article, on its own, sufficient to make the claims it is being used for? Springer states it covers the "complete pattern of relevant basic research mostly in Eastern Europe."

The article is one of biography and not of the scientific discipline of "molecular biology."

Questions include one of whether political articles published by Nauka meet WP:RS and whether press releases cited by reliable sources then make the original article a reliable source.

The claims are in . The edit plagiarizes the abstract clearly and without quotation marks, by the way.

Plagiarism example:

Wikipedia article: Asperger co-operated with the Nazi regime and was rewarded for his loyalty with career opportunities. He joined several organizations affiliated with the NSDAP (although not the Nazi Party itself), publicly legitimized race hygiene policies including forced sterilizations and, on several occasions, actively cooperated with the child ‘euthanasia’ program.

Source: Asperger managed to accommodate himself to the Nazi regime and was rewarded for his affirmations of loyalty with career opportunities. He joined several organizations affiliated with the NSDAP (although not the Nazi party itself), publicly legitimized race hygiene policies including forced sterilizations and, on several occasions, actively cooperated with the child ‘euthanasia’ program. Collect (talk) 17:55, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

Correct journal is Molecular Autism - mea culpa. An open source journal. The plagiarism is, alas, real. Collect (talk) 20:55, 12 May 2018 (UTC)
  • Could be interpreted both ways: here's a rather apologetic account, offered in A History of Autism: Conversations with the Pioneers by Adam Feinstein, drawing in part on the feedback by the subject's daughter. Here's a less apologetic account that does contain allegations of his participation in the child 'euthanasia' program: In a Different Key: The Story of Autism by John Donvan, Caren Zucker. I'm not familiar with these publications / authors, but this is food for thought. So it's hard to know whether he was indeed 'pro-Nazi' in his writing / public lectures or was just couching his language to protect his position and his clinic. I think we'd want to corroborate the allegations of euthanasia, as this appears to be the most damning claim here. --K.e.coffman (talk) 20:37, 12 May 2018 (UTC)
  • Correction The journal is Molecular Autism, not Molecular Biology (journal). Here is a direct link to the source article. Shock Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 20:44, 12 May 2018 (UTC)
Thank you. I have an autocorrect problem it seems - which seems to be in an automistake mode at times. I trust you do not ever have the same software. Collect (talk) 20:55, 12 May 2018 (UTC)
Never. You see, I keep my mind flexible by maintaining a perpetual state of utter confusion. You should try it, it's... ah... the stolen painting is in the house next door. Shock Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 21:01, 12 May 2018 (UTC)
  • Sheffer’s book revolves around Asperger and the Austrian medical system of the 1930s and 1940s. Despite its subtitle, Asperger’s Children is less about “the origins of autism” than it is a historical case study of complicity in the Third Reich.
  • But the distance, Sheffer argues, was merely geographic. “Asperger participated in Vienna’s child-killing system on multiple levels,” she writes.
This looks rather damning... K.e.coffman (talk) 21:13, 12 May 2018 (UTC)
It does not, alas, reach the level of the claims made in the other source - which include active co-operation with Nazi organizations, the "forced sterilizations" on the basis of race, and of euthanasia where no physical disabilities were involved. This source does not label Asperger as a leader in any of these programs, and states that "It can be misleading to classify people too neatly.” This is far more measured than the plagiarized claim being questioned. (note: the "no physical disabilities" is a quote from the source given. It is not my interpretation of anything - just a direct quotation) Collect (talk) 21:43, 12 May 2018 (UTC)
The quote provided "...on several occasions, actively cooperated with the child ‘euthanasia’ program" is supported by the NYT review:
  • But there were children he nevertheless decided couldn’t, and shouldn’t, be helped. He observed “inferiority of almost all organs” in a child who was eventually sent to Spiegelgrund; examining another child, a two-year-old girl, he concluded that “permanent placement at Spiegelgrund is absolutely necessary.” The girl died two months later.
As Sheffer makes clear, Asperger would have known that such decisions were probable death sentences. At least 789 children died at Spiegelgrund during the Third Reich, most of them from pneumonia, typically brought on by the barbiturates that would be mixed with sugar or cocoa and fed to the children with the express purpose of killing them. Sheffer says that Asperger was involved in the transfer of at least 44 children from his clinic to Spiegelgrund. Those are just the documented cases she found; the actual total is most likely higher.
There also appears to be a misreading of "...publicly legitimized race hygiene policies including forced sterilizations..." - the journal source does not claim that Asperger provided "active co-operation with Nazi organizations, the 'forced sterilizations' on the basis of race", only that he "publicly legitimized" such policies, which is consistent with the sources that I provided. K.e.coffman (talk) 22:21, 12 May 2018 (UTC)
The US used "forced sterilizations" of "defectives" at the time and well after as well, and Compulsory sterilization coves the topic. In fact, they still occur - with that article mentioning a 2015 case in the UK. Care to call the UK "Nazi"? Collect (talk) 23:33, 12 May 2018 (UTC)
“Asperger participated in Vienna’s child-killing system on multiple levels” seems "Nazi" enough. The bottom line, the claims in Molecular Autism are substantiated by another source (Sheffer). K.e.coffman (talk) 16:45, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

Azhar denial

This Al-Ahbash/AICP article use to say, The AICP runs Islamic schools affiliated with Al-Azhar,3 and referenced an Oxford source, however now it has been changed to, The AICP claims to run its Islamic schools being affiliated with Al-Azhar,3 a claim which has been denied by Al-Azhar.45678

As far as I know Egypt's Al-Azhar has not denied being affiliated with Al-Ahbash/AICP.

1.Kabha, Mustafa; Erlich, Haggai (2006). "Al-Ahbash and Wahhabiyya: Interpretations of Islam". International Journal of Middle East Studies. United States: Cambridge University Press This reference says they run islamic schools affiliated with azhar 2. Avon, Dominique (2008). "The Ahbash. A contested Lebanese Sunni movement in a globalized world". University of Montpellier Religion Studies. 2 4 This reference says the same 3. Egypt's news organization weekly ahram also confirms this. 5

Now looking at references that says Azhar denies this claim seem dubious 1. Reuters source makes no mention of a denial but then links to less credible website named islamonline 6 2. A supposed letter from Azhar severing ties with Ahbash is posted which cant be verified 7 3. Assembly of Muslim Jurists doesnt seem reliable 8 4. Radio free europe news source alleges that at the grozny conference, head of azhar called ahbash/habashis an extremist but again makes no mention of azhar denial of ahbash school affliaiton 9 Ashraq news website says head of azhar never excluded any sect 10 In addition the official grozny website makes no mention ahbash/habashis 11 5. "Exposing Ahbash" pdf self published by group in indonesia also doesnt seem reliable 12

Would appreciate opinions on this topic, thanks. 67.180.185.229 (talk) 01:36, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

Are maps exempt from WP:VERIFY?

The map in question is

Approximate map of the Iron Age kingdom of Israel (blue) and kingdom of Judah (yellow), with their neighbors (tan) (9th century BCE)

I cn tagged it as there was no source and recently an IP removed the tag twice, adding "approximate" and a source.13 Our map says 9th century. The source says 733 BCE. Our map has differences in the boundaries, particularly Israel's. How can a source which shows a map from a different period with different boundaries be a source for this map? I'm actually asking two questions. Was my cn tag correct (I've tagged it in other articles), and is this an acceptable source? I don't object to a map at all so long as it's reliably sourced. I would prefer the source to be in the article, not just the map's page. Doug Weller talk 10:38, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

Would that not depend on the source for the map. As it is sourced the the JVL the question should be is the JVL RS.Slatersteven (talk) 10:44, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
  • Maps (and other images) should be ILLUSTRATIONS of information presented in the text of the article. It is that text which is required to be verifiable. So the question is... does this map illustrate information presented in the text of the article? If so, the next question is... is there another map which might better illustrate the same information? Blueboar (talk) 11:49, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
I mostly agree with Blueboar we should create our maps according to the text that should be of course supported by WP:RS.If we will copy map from some other source that could a WP:COPYVIO--Shrike (talk) 11:52, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
Maps should cite their sources, usually there are too many sources involved in making a map for them to all be cited in the text. There are a lot of complicated maps like this — Are editors responsible for going through every citation in the text to see if it's verified? — Any editor can challenge it if the sourcing isn't clear, so if you do all this work to create a map, it is really that hard to keep track of the sourcing and make it available?Seraphim System (talk) 12:03, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
Maps should have a source - though verifying each line on a map is an issue. This particular map is based on 14 which does not cite a source. It is however very close border's wide to the JVL map (100 years later) - the main different that this map includes less territories east of the Jordan. There are maps on Wikipedia with much poorer sourcing.Icewhiz (talk) 12:26, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
It seems to be based on this 2006 map - 15 - for all kingdoms in the area - which doesn't have a source.Icewhiz (talk) 12:31, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

Maps are not an "exempt class" especially where they implicitly make certain claims which we would need WP:RS sourcing for. I would point out that maps are used and have been used in the past to make "political claims" about historic lands, especially in support of irredentist claims. And folks have gotten in trouble for using them in real life - note the PRC stamp "The Whole Country is Red" where Taiwan was in white. In short - maps are not exempt at all. Collect (talk) 14:02, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

  • Map of England? Largely uncontentious, minimal sourcing required. Map of $DISPUTEDTERRITORY with relevance to $MILLENNIALONGCONFLICT and $CURRENTPOLITICALSHITSTORM? I want a stack of WP:RS that reaches all the way to Jimbo's beard. Guy (Help!) 18:41, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
  • No, maps are not exempt from our usual sourcing requirements. This is true in all cases, but is doubly true in the cases Collect and JzG point out above. Neutralitytalk 22:11, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
  • For the question in the header -- no, maps are not exempt from V. For the two questions in the OP, my answers are: about the tag, "yes the tagging was correct" (fails V with respect to the source cited at the commons page, and it needs a citation that verifies it), and about whether the source is reliable; i say "meh". There are much better scholarly sources than JVL, and the map at JVL is sourced to this weird website. Jytdog (talk) 01:13, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
Even better, Malwarebytes gives me a "Website blocked due to fraud" message when I go to that weird website. Shock Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 04:06, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
  • Extreme layman's comment (I know a little about the Hebrew Bible, less about archaeology and almost nothing about cartography.) My copy of the Jewish Study Bible has on page 504 a map that seems to largely agree with this one on the relative positions of various settlements, although not many of them are the same ones because it depicts the time of Joshua. Page 685-ish (sorry; Kindle) has a map showing "the approximate boundaries between Israel, Judah and Philistia", and as approximations go it's in general agreement with this one, although its Philistia looks "fatter" than ours (Lachish is not marked, but Ekron and "Gath?" are). They don't give a southern border of Judah or a northern or eastern border of Israel (another map they give but I can't remember the page agrees roughly with our northwestern boundary). Also, their Shechem, Bethel and Jerusalem are all on a fairly straight line running north-south, which is not how ours is, and they interestingly have Ashdod (which we describe as a port city and don't imply it was ever not a port a city) some distance inland -- and the same is true of page 504 and at least one other map in between. Both the 685 map and another on page 696-7 has Bethel practically on the border, and the latter shows it nearly due west of Jericho, just barely north. I know we're dealing with approximations, but aren't most of these archeological sites that have been excavated? Hijiri 88 (やや) 09:42, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
I didn't actually read any comments after Doug's first before writing the above; now that I have and saw Guy's remark about the MILLENNIALONGCONFLICT and POLITICALSITSHTORM: this actually raises the further question of whether IPs are allowed remove CN tags from such things as IPs are not allowed make edits related to the Arab-Israeli conflict; if the problem is the map making "Philistine states" narrower than my scholarly source does ... arrgh, what a mess. Hijiri 88 (やや) 09:50, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

Fakelore and sourcing

While building up WP:Folklore, today I revisited fakelore. As the article admirably makes clear, this is a controversial concept in folklore studies. However, that doesn't seem to have stopped editors from adding what they deem to be fakelore to the article, even when a source does not refer to it as fakelore. More eyes sourcing for this article would be appreciated. :bloodofox: (talk) 16:23, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

Is One America News Network WP:RS? See Talk:Douma chemical attack. Comments? Huldra (talk) 20:10, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

Not from what I can see, very poor reputation and a tendency to publish fake stories.Slatersteven (talk) 20:26, 12 May 2018 (UTC)
Certainly not reliable. Neutralitytalk 22:00, 12 May 2018 (UTC)
  • Use with caution. I don't share its political views, but OANN deserves some credit for actually doing proper journalism, and not just acting, like most "mainstream" media, as stenographers for the usual war propaganda. --NSH001 (talk) 08:00, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
What in the world does this mean?Volunteer Marek (talk) 08:12, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
  • Not even close to being RS. FFS, this is the outlet that has Jack Posobiec as a commentator/contributor 16. This is the guy who promoted the idiotic Pizzagate conspiracy theory, has praised the white supremacist Richard B. Spencer, has used the anti-semitic Triple parentheses "echo" to attack people, encouraged the harassment and attacks on political opponents on twitter, promoted and made up countless other fake news (and by "fake news" I mean shit that was outright fake, not that some schmuck on facebook or twitter called fake). And oh yeah, he showed up to an anti-Trump rally with a "Rape Melania" sign, pretending to be an anti-Trump protester. Anyone who thinks this is a reliable source needs to have their head checked and their moral compass repaired.Volunteer Marek (talk) 08:12, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
  • Reliable for supporting a statement that is attributed, or presented in text as opinion (example: “According to reports by One America News Network, XYZ occurred in 2015”... but not reliable enough to support an unattributed statement presented as fact (ie: “XYZ occurred in 2015”). Do not give it WP:Undue weight. Blueboar (talk) 11:20, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
I know you always say this and you're pretty consistent, but this kind of approach just isn't viable in practice. There's a ton of "opinions" out there and we can't include them all, just because we can attribute them. This is doubly true for sites that publish hoaxes and fake news.Volunteer Marek (talk) 17:16, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
Marek I understand where you're coming from, but they also seem to have gotten a reporter to the town, and shot video from there 17. Despite their deficiencies as a source, that does raise the possibility that there is some scrap of value to be found — enough that use with attribution is justified. -Darouet (talk) 18:35, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
Are you seriously arguing that "hey, they might publish fake news, hoaxes and conspiracy theories, but there might have been this one instance where they might have made a half hearted attempt at not just making shit up out of thin air, so we should use them, just with attribution"? Volunteer Marek (talk) 21:34, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
And the National Enquirer has a Pulitzer. O3000 (talk) 21:47, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
  • Not reliable. One America News is on the level of Gateway Pundit, Breitbart and InfoWars. It regularly promotes hoaxes and falsehoods. When the network publishes falsehoods, it doesn't retract them. I think this episode in OAN's history is a good example of what a garbage source it is: "In November 2017, One America News aired a segment citing a false rumor by an anonymous Twitter account that the Washington Post had offered $1,000 to Roy Moore's accusers.303132 One America News described the tweet as a "report" and described the tweeter as a "former Secret Service agent and Navy veteran".3031 The Twitter account had a history of tweeting falsehoods and conspiracy theories; the Twitter account had also made repeated and inconsistent lies about its identity, including appropriating the identity of a Navy serviceman who died in 2007.31 After it was revealed that the story was a hoax, One America News did not retract its report."18 Snooganssnoogans (talk) 12:10, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
  • God, no - They have little-to-no credibility for factual reporting and a reputation for hiring alt-right conspiracy theorist trolls like Jack Posobiec. No scraps to be found here.- MrX 🖋 18:55, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
  • Not Reliable It's a fringey political propaganda outlet masquerading as news. Very problematic history of promoting bogus news stories and conspiracy theories. -Ad Orientem (talk) 20:27, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
  • Piling on Only good for humor value. O3000 (talk) 21:02, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
  • Never - a quintessential example of a non-reliable source. --Orange Mike | Talk 21:52, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
  • Not reliable what everyone else said Chetsford (talk) 23:00, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
  • Nope with a side of nope, extra nope and nope sauce. This is a faux news site that has no place on Wikipedia. Guy (Help!) 19:18, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

The Daily Wire

I have seen some disagreement on whether The Daily Wire is a RS and when it should be used. I want to clarify here whether TDW is a RS in order to use it in BLPs. On Joss Whedon, the article says In April 2018, Whedon expressed on Twitter that he wanted President Donald Trump to "Die...Just Quietly Die." which is sourced to Emily Zanotti at TDW. The authors at TDW are experienced, confirmed by a LinkedIn spot check I made, and they commonly write for well established RSes. However, TDW does not publish an editorial policy; I only found this. I tried to find RSes discussing TDW.

Here are some WP:USEBYOTHERS: Al Arabiya (huge chunk of article), Fox News (a tiny section), SF Gate (minor), Newsweek (major story; this also by NY Daily News, WaPo and wgntv), PolitiFact (a fact-checking organization!), National Review (small), National Review (big), National Review (small), Miami Herald (whole article), WaPo (among others), National Review (small), Philly (an interview, this demonstrates TDW as a reliable secondary source), Forbes (small but takes TDW reporting pretty much as fact), CJR (builds upon TDW), News.com.au (TDW was first to publish a screenshot on which a story was based), Village Voice (small and/or minor), National Review (small), Fox News (interview; big), Newsweek (twice and small), The New York Times.

I couldn't find many other RS on TDW reporting, here are those I found: Independent (only about random Twitter users criticizing TDW), The New York Times (not really citing a fact published on TDW, but discussing some other aspects of its reporting; there are some other NY Times articles mentioning TDW)

TDW is a blog-styled news website, which passes WP:NEWSBLOG, so that is not a concern. Of course we should also take care about opinions published on TDW. Note that this is about the TDW website, not the podcasts associated with it. wumbolo ^^^ 16:14, 26 April 2018 (UTC)

Daily Wire should never be cited. The site regularly publishes false and misleading stories. If a story on the Daily Wire is notable and accurate, it should be substantiated by secondary coverage. The editor-in-chief and founder of the Daily Wire is the former editor-in-chief of Breitbart News, a website renowned for publishing hoaxes, conspiracy theories and falsehoods. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 19:44, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
So we should just ignore the WP:USEBYOTHERS mentioned above? Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 19:57, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
This is a good question because OP suggests that all those links up there substantiate that DW stories are used as facts by other news outlets. But the links don't really show that at all. I checked a few (I don't have time to check them all):
Al Arabiya (a news outlet of dubious reliability?): The story cites a Daily Wire report which itself cited an Associated Press exclusive19. There's nothing in the DW story that's not in the AP story. Whoever wrote the Al Arabiya story is a bad journalist.
Fox News: it‘s just a story about Ben Shapiro.
SF Gate: The Daily Wire posted a clip from a CNN segment. SF Gate notes that the Daily Wire uploaded it.
Newsweek: It‘s a story about how Laura Ingraham shared a Daily wire story about David Hogg getting college applications rejected (Hogg posted about it on his public social media accounts originally). The story is about Laura Ingraham attacking Hogg.
PolitiFact: PF cites Daily Wire‘s compilation of instances where Trump falsely accused the Cruz campaign of cheating. PolitiFact assessed the claim Trump had accused Cruz of cheating in all those instances as half-true ("The statement is partially accurate but leaves out important details or takes things out of context.")
(edit conflict) @Snooganssnoogans: Thanks for the comments. I don't know about unreliability because I was using our WP:ADVANCED RS search engine. I am crossing out the AA story and SF Gate from my original post. Regarding Fox News, I was referring to Shapiro’s news website published videos earlier this week of protesters who called him the “founder” of “this fascist ideological regime.” Regarding Newsweek, the whole big story started out by Ingraham sharing the TDW story on Twitter. That story is about Hogg's college admissions. Newsweek acknowledged that TDW published the names of the colleges and basically used it as fact: Ingraham shared a Daily Wire story on Wednesday, writing that Hogg had been rejected by four colleges... You took PolitiFact out of context: the PolitiFact entry doesn't talk exclusively about The Daily Wire, and when it does talk about TDW, it immediately cites it as fact, verifies it using other PolitiFact articles and still uses TDW as fact. wumbolo ^^^ 20:54, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
CJR: In a long-piece about the alt-right, CJR asked Ben Shapiro (a former Breitbart - "home of the alt-right" - editor) a question about the alt-right.
NY Times 1: DW got a bunch of facebook likes for a story about Doritos.
NY Times 2: A one-sentence quote by Ben Shapiro in an NYT article about how the left and the right reacted to Trump's attempted firing of Robert Mueller.
@Snooganssnoogans: striking out CJR and NYT1. wumbolo ^^^ 20:58, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
So, reporting by DW is not cited as fact by other reliable sources. The links above are mostly just mentions of DW and Ben Shapiro by other reliable sources. It's similar to how sources like Gateway Pundit and Breitbart are frequently mentioned by reliable sources but never as a source of factual accuracy. DW and Ben Shapiro are notable figures in the rightwing media and are influential in conservative circles, but it's not a reliable source. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 20:21, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
@Snooganssnoogans: It wasn't the Daily Wire EIC who started the hoaxes on Breitbart, it was Steve Bannon, and also absolutely not Andrew Breitbart himself. wumbolo ^^^ 20:06, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
  • Non RS: Lacks reputation for accuracy and fact-checking; I would avoid it for BLP matters. If material is noteworthy, I'm sure it would be covered in better sources. K.e.coffman (talk) 21:49, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
  • Use with caution but not a blanket ban. I don't see anything that says it lacks a reputation for accuracy and fact-checking. Anyhow, news sites like Breitbart, Daily Caller, Daily Beast, Vox, Huffington Post, The Daily Wire ...etc all have to be used with caution as they all have inherent biases. Ben Shapiro appears on CNN regularly so if he were such a fabricator, I don't think they would invite him. Clearly if the Daily Wire conducts an interview, that would be legitimate as a source. If there is something more partisan, then we have to weigh if it is important enough and if the source adds something different. If it is, one should state "according to xxxx writing for conservative-leaning Daily Wire that...." Unfortunately in this day and age, all our mainstream publications have biases (generally in what facts they leave out) and we need the more partisan sources like Vox and Daily Wire to keep them in check.Patapsco913 (talk) 22:23, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
    • Off-topic, but what exactly is the reason for implying that Vox and The Daily Beast are "biased" and "partisan"? This thread is starting to come up on other pages now. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 03:18, 30 April 2018 (UTC)
    • Did you just suggest that Breitbart can *ever* be a source, subject only to the caution that it has inherent bias and must be treated warily? It may once have been so, when Andrew was alive, but in recent years I would have lumped it with sites like Infowars and (again, in recent years) Fox News as the antithesis of a reliable source.- Simon Dodd { U·T·C·WP:LAW } 14:29, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
      • Sticking Fox News into the same category as Daily Mail is not true to what RS means, Simon. Fox News, to this day, is considered by consensus (at multiple RfCs) to be a RS for anything but it's political opinion articles.Bahb the Illuminated (talk) 21:20, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
        • WP:RS says that a reliable source is one that (inter alia) has "a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy." If Fox News (as it exists today, not as it might arguably have existed before 2016) meets that standard, then words have no meaning. And if there were any good-faith dispute on Fox's reputation, WP:USEBYOTHERS bangs a lot of nails into its the coffin. And, by contrast, as clearly as the RS standard doesn't fit Fox, WP:QS fits it like a glove: "Questionable sources are those that have a poor reputation for checking the facts...or have an apparent conflict of interest." Fox News is not now (if it ever was) a reliable source. - Simon Dodd { U·T·C·WP:LAW } 23:02, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
  • Not RS for anything other than its own opinion in its own article. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 23:14, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
@BullRangifer: what did you mean here by saying that The Daily Wire is an "extremist website" ? wumbolo ^^^ 23:27, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
  • Avoid - Has no reputation for reliability, fact-checking and accuracy. That its editor is a Breitbart castoff is troubling; that its content is largely Trumpist apologia is telling. May be useful for including the opinions of Trumpist supporters but should never be used as a source for factual claims about those whom it politically opposes. (Just like Media Matters. In general, we should avoid using hyperpartisan outlets of this nature for claims of fact.)NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 03:36, 28 April 2018 (UTC)
@NorthBySouthBaranof: actually The Daily Wire is very anti-Trump. It is very disingenuous to compare Shapiro to Breitbart, as Shapiro quit Breitbart himself because of Steve Bannon, who called the site his alt-right platform, and Shapiro is one of the alt-right's top targets. wumbolo ^^^ 08:00, 28 April 2018 (UTC)
@NorthBySouthBaranof: I recommend that you read this: How Breitbart Destroyed Andrew Breitbart's Legacy by Conor Friedersdorf at The Atlantic. wumbolo ^^^ 15:41, 29 April 2018 (UTC)

Just a reminder everyone this discussion about The Daily Wire, not Shapiro, Breitbart, Bannon, or Trump. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 11:12, 28 April 2018 (UTC)

Use with caution: Clearly a very opinionated source that would be considered on a case by case basis but it shouldn't be excluded outright. Springee (talk) 13:15, 28 April 2018 (UTC)

  • Reliable, but partisan - if we cast out partisan outlets, we would be left with hardly any sources at all. There is no indication they are unreliable, and it seems they have a regular editorial process. Political lean is not how we determine RS. A very loose former association with other outlets (guilt by association) is not an issue either.Icewhiz (talk) 11:17, 29 April 2018 (UTC)
" There is no indication they are unreliable". Daily Wire regularly publishes of climate change denial rubbish20 (you can see experts debunk DW articles here21) and promotes the same myths about voter fraud22 that are frequently debunked by actual reliable sources. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 11:45, 29 April 2018 (UTC)
@Snooganssnoogans: Fox News also regularly publishes "climate change denial rubbish". wumbolo ^^^ 11:58, 29 April 2018 (UTC)
Which isn't a reliable source (if it ever was, it isn't now), but even if it were, the argument "some other source fails RS, therefore this source passes RS" doesn't work.- Simon Dodd { U·T·C·WP:LAW } 14:34, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
Which does not reflect well on Fox News. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 12:02, 29 April 2018 (UTC)
We are not discussing Fox News here but the TDW. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 12:06, 29 April 2018 (UTC)
Climate has unfortunately become a partisan issue (we're doomed on Guardian is an interesting read) - reporting on studies does not make an outlet unreliable. Had there been an incident in which the outlet itself falsified reporting it would be a different matter - however nothing like that has been indicated by anyone here.Icewhiz (talk) 12:42, 29 April 2018 (UTC)
'Reporting on studies'? No. Misinterpreting and twisting studies?23 That's not what RS do. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 12:45, 29 April 2018 (UTC)
Is climatefeedback.org (I tried to poke around the website a bit to their about - but seems it stopped functioning - seems a bit advocatish) - a RS?Icewhiz (talk) 12:56, 29 April 2018 (UTC)
Yes. It's run by University of California Merced’s Center for Climate Communication and is literally just panels of experts reviewing articles related to climate change. See this24 for an example. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 13:18, 29 April 2018 (UTC)

Here's a FactCheck.org article which found that DW was the source of a falsehood25. Snopes says "DailyWire.com has a tendency to share stories that are taken out of context or not verified," and then mentions some examples of false DW stories.26 Snooganssnoogans (talk) 13:58, 29 April 2018 (UTC)

@Snooganssnoogans: I wouldn't trust something a fact checker says below it falsely accusing of TDW publishing a false story, if the fact checker in that article is incompetent of differentiating "different transliteration of the same name" and "different name derived from the same Latin/Greek word". wumbolo ^^^ 14:38, 29 April 2018 (UTC)
  • A partisan but generally reliable source. I know of no media sources that are perfectly reliable (remember when the New York Times got us into a war by stating that weapons of mass destruction were...?).E.M.Gregory (talk) 14:11, 29 April 2018 (UTC)
One news outlet got a story wrong once, therefore all news outlets are equally reliable? One scientist had a paper retracted from a prestigious journal, therefore Nature is equally reliable as Answers in Genesis? I did not realize that WP:RS required perfect accuracy. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 14:29, 29 April 2018 (UTC)
  • It is not collegial to distort a fellow editor's comment. For the record, I regard newspapers and academic journals as arrayed along a spectrum. Leaving aside the fact that I cannot think of a single significant news outlet - broadcast or print - that is without a POV. And the fact that we humans tend to perceive the biased inaccuracies more readily in n material written form a perspective that we disagree with. It is a fact that even the most reliable sources sometimes publish bad facts and all also sometimes publish material that - although accurate - presents material from a perspective that is so limited or so distorted is untrue. There are, of course, sources that are so routinely and/pr deliberately inaccurate that I dismiss them out of hand. But while The Wire is not at the same end of the spectrum as The New Yorker, The Atlantic, or Nature, neither is can it be disqualified as unreliable.E.M.Gregory (talk) 17:21, 29 April 2018 (UTC)
  • Comment: the Joss Whedon tweet is probably not a WP:RS issue (anyone can verify it), but a WP:WEIGHT and WP:BLPSTYLE issue. As for the broader question of whether TDW is a RS in order to use it in BLPs, that's really outside the scope of this noticeboard. We do not have a list of quote-unquote "reliable" sources , since reliability depends on context. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 07:25, 30 April 2018 (UTC)
  • The Daily Wire is clearly a WP:RS. If in doubt because of WP:CONTEXTMATTERS, then use with caution, but the same WP:RSCONTEXT applies to State-Sponsored media such as the BBC and to left-of-center media such as MSNBC, both of which are regularly cited on Wikipedia. XavierItzm (talk) 17:30, 30 April 2018 (UTC)
  • It is mind-boggling that anyone could compare the "Daily Wire" to the BBC. That's a pretty bizarre opinion. Neutralitytalk 03:28, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
  • Avoid/Rarely RS - Definitely does not have a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. The problem isn't that it has an obvious political leaning, it's that it skews stories, publishes inaccuracies, and uses misleading headlines (whether that's in order to bend things towards a particular political perspective is secondary). — Rhododendrites talk \\ 18:24, 30 April 2018 (UTC)
  • Avoid. It clearly doesn't have a reputation for fact-checking or accuracy; most of the coverage treats it as Ben Shapiro's blog and a mouthpiece for his opinions rather than a news source. I also don't agree that WP:NEWSBLOG applies; that policy is for blogs that are run as a subsection of an otherwise-reputable news source, or for blogs that otherwise structure themselves as a formal news organization and which are therefore subject to rigorous fact-checking and accuracy constraints. While the blog publishing format is not itself automatically disqualifying, the fact that it seems to have a personal blog's level of fact-checking - ie. essentially none - certainly is disqualifying. Notably, outside of Shapiro's position as s editor-in-chief (which I couldn't actually find mentioned on the site itself, only in secondary sources that just seem to be using to mean "in charge"), it seems to have no formal editorial process, just a bunch of independent authors Shapiro invites to write there - digging deeper, I think it actually has no fact-checking whatsoever? As in, it doesn't even have any bare-bones efforts to ensure accuracy or apply editorial controls (which are, obviously, the things that a news source derives its status as a WP:RS news source from.) As near as I can tell, it's simply the personal blog for a bunch of high-profile people on the right, who independently post their opinions and collect news stories from news sites that interest them. That puts it under WP:SPS, if a high-profile one - it can be cited very cautiously for opinions, with inline citations, as long as those make no claims about living people and provided that that opinion is WP:DUE, but I don't think it can ever be used for anything else. --Aquillion (talk)
  • Comment. The media in the last 20-20 years has changed enormously. The media is just fighting for its survival (there are tons of reference, a high number of studies and we are living it, isn't it?). Yesterday, I was translating a fragment from a book need for a Wikipedia Afd. The study's result was that geographic location, cultural background and, of course, the money flow into into virtually anything created over time a huge gap between let's say NyTimes (it's just an example, I have no idea about their financial background however, I'm sure it's super solid) and another piece of media (let's say XYZ News), perceived decent. Now, which the two examples it's more prone to alter their content, accept paid content and all that stuff we see as non ethical. Yes, It is non-ethincal. But, you all know how it works. The factor forces institutions or anything else to set apart one from the other. The same it's applicable to companies, hospitals and even, unfortunately cancer related centers :'‑( I've had an experience and I felt the frustration on my own skin. I was diagnosed with stage II colon cancer 10 years ago, when I was 28. The low budget cancer center visited were promising me that everything is fine but I haven't felt that they really care, it was like I wouldn't even exist. I visited than a few higher, privately held cancer centers. They've been super bold to me, explained me every risk, told me to NOT to google about it at all (but of course I did and based on what I read I was already prepared to die, literally). They presented me the best available options they could offer. I picked the second one, for obvious reasons. And here I am. So, it's very hard to take a decision knowing this. Of course Daily Wire shouldn't be used for BLP (or only with very high caution). Robert G. (talk) 01:07, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
  • The Daily Wire has a history of publishing false and misleading material. It would show incredibly poor editorial judgement to treat it as a reliable source for anything remotely controversial. MastCell Talk 19:50, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
@MastCell: actually, most sources have a comparable history. Per WP:NEWSORG, One signal that a news organization engages in fact-checking and has a reputation for accuracy is the publication of corrections. TDW has always timely published appropriate corrections, when it reported false or misleading content. wumbolo ^^^ 19:59, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
Actually... no. Most reliable sources do not have a comparable history of repeatedly publishing partisan falsehoods. The Wire "has a tendency to share stories that are taken out of context or not verified", which makes it pretty much the exact opposite of a reliable source. Corrections are one component of reliability, but not the only one. If you seriously think that the Daily Wire and (say) the New York Times are comparably reliable because they both publish corrections, then there is a serious competency issue here. And if I, as an admin, saw someone using this site as a "reliable source" for controversial material (or especially for anything touching on a BLP), then I'd take that pretty seriously. MastCell Talk 22:27, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
  • Avoid. Generic partisan hack website, not a news organisation. Guy (Help!) 15:48, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
  • Reliable: primarily based on the credentials of Joss Whedon. In general Daily Wire is a reliable source but admittedly does not have the reputation of the NY Times. Just because it is a partisan source does not disqualify it out of hand. In fact WP:BIASED says: " Sometimes non-neutral sources are the best possible sources for supporting information." – Lionel(talk) 02:30, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
"Joseph Hill Whedon (/ˈhwiːdən/; born June 23, 1964) is an American screenwriter, director, producer, comic book writer, and composer." And that makes him a credentialled journalist... how, exactly? Guy (Help!) 19:22, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

The Holocaust in Poland: Ewa Kurek & Mark Paul

The article in question is The Holocaust in Poland (and a few other related articles such as Rescue of Jews by Poles during the Holocaust). There are two sources I'd like to get more eyes on following a dispute on the page:

  1. Ewa Kurek - this iUniverse book with the following passage on page 305 - "Poland became the only country in German occupied Europe in which assisting Jews carried the highest price - death.. This passage is false as the death penalty was imposed in over countries for assisting Jews as may be seen in - Talk:Collaboration in German-occupied Poland#"only German-occupied European country" with death penalty. This Kurek is not widely cited by others (Note that there is a microbiologist with the same name who is well regarded and is cited for microbiology), and as of 2006 she held a lecturing position 27 in "Higher School of Skills in Kielce" - a CV posted here doesn't show her holding a significant academic position. Ewa Kurek herself in known in the following context - 282930 - for stmts such as Polish author Ewa Kurek, has claimed that Jews had fun in the ghettos during the German occupation of Poland during World War II. In addition to the iUniverse book, in a Rescue of Jews by Poles during the Holocaust (and a few other places) we are using an older book published by Hippocrene Books and falsely state it was written by Jan Karski (who wrote the introduction).
  2. Mark Paul - some works published by "Polish Educational Foundation in North America (Toronto)" (which mainly publishes works by Paul), others hosted online on multiple sites such as Committee for the Defence and Propagation of the Good Name of Poland and the Poles (Polish Canadian Congress), www.glaukopis.pl/, and http://www.internationalresearchcenter.org (online - the same title is hosted on multiple sites). The documents seem to be fairly frequently updated (e.g. published first in 2001(?) has a 2017 version - and multiple versions in between varying in text). Little is known about Paul beyond the name itself on the title - it might be an alias. Beyond being in the references section multiple times, Paul is used to source stmts such as:
    • For hundreds of thousands of Jews the Polish language was barely familiar.183 By contrast, the overwhelming majority of German Jews of this period spoke German as their first language.
    • The Holocaust testimonies confirm that, trapped in the ghettos, some Jews took advantage of inside information about the socio-economic standing of other Jews as well (see Group 13)
    • and collaborating with the NKVD. Others assumed that, driven by vengeance, Jewish Communists had been prominent in betraying the ethnically Polish and other non-Jewish victims..
Paul is very rarely (around one cite per work on google.scholar - possibly complicated by the multiple versions of these works) cited by others. There are some non-flattering comments on him by more notable authors - e.g. "Ironically, even a cursory examination of The Story of Two Shtetls reveals that Mark Paul and the other authors in this generally anti-Jewish tract rely almost overwhelmingly on Polish secondary sources-rather than archival research-to discount the "Jewish version" of the events described. In other words and without explanation, Polish histories of the Holocaust are taken as the gospel truth, while Jewish sources and testimonies are mostly treated as complete falsehoods" by Allan Levine in this book, or Whatever the result of the case in a court of law, the larger discussions about the partisan activities have produced some demonstrably false claims. For instance, in a document published by the Canadian Polish Congress..... in Zeleznikow, John. "Life at the end of the world: a Jewish Partisan in Melbourne." Holocaust Studies 16.3 (2010): 11-32..Icewhiz (talk) 07:10, 7 May 2018 (UTC)

Discussion (Paul; Kurek)

iUniverse is pretty much the definition of self-published..it along with lulu.com that one is almost assuredly unreliable without much better author credentials than have been presented thus far. Paul is more difficult.. but the best solution is probably to find better sources for the information. The information on the lack of knowledge of Polish by Jewish Poles is not controversial, at least as far as many did not know Polish. Why it needs contrasting with Jewish Germans is unclear in an article or articles on Poland. The other two example statements can be found, if in a slightly less slanted tone, in most mainstream histories...yes, some Jews in ghettos took advantage of other ghetto inhabitants. Of course, other inhabitants went out of their way to help other ghetto inhabitants...people are people and will both act selfishly and unselfishly. And the trope that Jewish Poles were all Communists is frequently found but just as frequently refuted in most mainstream histories of the period. In other words, I suggest that what Paul is being cited for can be replaced with other sources which will cut down the POV he holds that is not shared by more mainstream historians. Ealdgyth - Talk 11:51, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
@Ealdgyth: - I'm not sure Paul is more difficult here - as this wasn't published by a reputable publisher - I don't believe "Polish Educational Foundation in North America (Toronto)" (or PEFINA) published anyone else. I agree that some of the info above (as well as throughout Wikipedia in other articles that use these online Mark Paul documents) isn't controversial - but the stmt of "Others assumed that, driven by vengeance, Jewish Communists had been prominent in betraying the ethnically Polish and other non-Jewish victims." (not some Jews - but mainly Jews (prominent)) - needs to be attributed clearly to Żydokomuna adherents. If you take a read through some of these documents I believe you will see the nature of the writing - surely some non-controversial facts are not an issue - however other aspects are. We were also using Paul in a BLP - Yitzhak Arad (old version) (using Remarkably, the ideologically tinged memoirs of Yitzhak Arad (then Rudnicki), a historian at the Yad Vashem institute, who belonged to a partisan unit based in Narocz forest which was part of the Voroshilov Brigade, do not do not even mention the “disarming” of Burzyński’s unit. from Tangled Web 2008). and also (wasn't used directly) What Arad neglects to mention is that Soviet and Jewish partisans also attacked and murdered Polish partisans and civilians, Afterwards, Yitzhak Arad joined the NKVD and was active in combattinng the anti-Communist Lithuanian underground. He was dismissed from its ranks for his undisciplined behaviour.Icewhiz (talk) 12:36, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
Very large parts of Rescue of Jews by Poles during the Holocaust (which presents a fringe viewpoint on the scale of rescue in Wikipedia's voice - turning what was a very small repressed minority who acted at great risk to themselves from Polish society - into a mainstream society movement) are sourced to Paul - including a large list of communities that allegedly did so. It also seems likely that the rest of the article was developed from Paul's text - citing Paul's sources.Icewhiz (talk) 05:18, 8 May 2018 (UTC)
The Arad stuff is much more problematical. And I'm pretty sure Paul's not the best choice for the basis of an article on the rescue of Jews in Poland during the Holocaust. There are better, more mainstream sources available - as I recall, Gilbert did a work on rescuing Jews, which, unfortunately, my copy is packed up right now. I'm not prepared to say Paul would never be reliable but nothing I'm seeing is saying that he's reliable in most of these instances. I note that none of my works on Poland in WWII (including Kochanski's The Eagle Unbowed, Lukas' The Forgotten Holocaust (3rd ed 2012), and Rutherford's Prelude to the Final Solution) cite this author. That's usually a sign of not having a notable viewpoint and thus being essentially self-published. WorldCat has ONE listing for anything published by PEFINA Press, which is Paul's Neighbors on the Eve of the Holocaust - which is owned by TWO libraries world-wide, which is also a red-flag. By contrast - Lukas' work is seven entries in WorldCat for just the ISBN of the edition I have - and is carried by 49 libraries for those 7 entries. But Kochanski's book is held by over 1006 libraries. This is a good indication that Paul's not mainstream and likely totally unreliable. Use something else. (Sorry for the delayed rely here - Monday's and Tuesday's are my spouse's days off and I'm generally much more scarce on Wikipedia then). Ealdgyth - Talk 20:25, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
  • Avoid both: I looked up the work by Paul 31, and it includes this statement: "Collaboration in the destruction of the Polish state, and in the killing of its officials and military in 1939-1941, constituted de facto collaboration with Nazi Germany, with which the Soviet Union shared a common, criminal purpose and agenda in 1939-1945." (p. 10)
So Jews managed to collaborate with Nazi Germany before the territories that the lived in were actually occupied by Nazi Germany? It does not make much sense. In any event, he's published by the non-peer-reviewed PEFINA Press, which belongs to "Polish Educational Foundation in North America". I would consider this to be a WP:QS publisher. Paul does not appear to have credentials as a historian, so I would consider him to be WP:QS author, given the quote I provided. K.e.coffman (talk) 00:45, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
No? 3 editors against 1 (Icewhiz) not included the initial editor who first used Mark Paul as a source. You may want to comment there K.e.coffman please to get a more equitable reason not to use him as a source.GizzyCatBella (talk) 18:13, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
It's better to keep the discussion in one place (here). Also, Wikipedia discussions are not decided by the number of votes, but by the strength of the arguments. K.e.coffman (talk) 18:16, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
WP:ILIKEIT vs. a policy based arguement of WP:QS WP:SPS. I will note (AGF) that I am pleased to see that the lively discussion has encouraged a new user to register on Wikipedia and comment at length about Paul, newcomers being a welcome addition to Wikipedia.Icewhiz (talk) 18:22, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
  • Not RS. François Robere (talk) 09:58, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
  • Limited reliability, avoid for controversial claims, no need to remove ASAP for non-controversial claims, replace all in long term, . First, Kurek: self-published (edited: only one of her book seems self-published) amateur historian. Recommend to avoid, there are likely more reliable sources on what she claims. However, I don't think she is too unreliable to be cited for uncontroversial facts (but again, better to replace all cites to her with more reliable works). Second. Paul. As I've noted at the cited talk page, I think he is pretty much like Kurek: self-published amateur historian, etc. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 03:33, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

So Kurek is a self-published amateur historian??? Does anyone actually do some genuine checking, which by the way is readily accessible online so there's NO excuse. Kurek's doctoral dissertation - she was student of Wladyslaw Bartoszewski at the Catholic University of Lublin - was published in 1992 by Znak, a leading Polish publishing house, as Gdy klasztor znaczyl zycie: Udzial zenskich zgromadzen zakonnych w akcji ratowania dzieci zydowskich w Polsce w latach 1939-1945. It was translated into English as Your Life Is Worth Mine with a foreword by Jan Karski, and published by Hippocrene Books in New York (1997). It has been cited in numerous publications, including publications found on the Yad Vashem website: The Convent Children The Rescue of Jewish Children in Polish Convents During the Holocaust by Nahum Bogner (http://www.yadvashem.org/odot_pdf/Microsoft%20Word%20-%202308.pdf) and is even recommended reading (http://www.yadvashem.org/yv/en/education/courses/life_lessons/pdfs/lesson8_7.pdf). Yad Vashem published Nachum Bogner's monograph on that same topic, At the Mercy of Strangers, in which he cites Kurek extensively. Nachum Bogner is a Yad Vashem historian and member of the Commission for the Designation of the Righteous Among the Nations."(https://www.yadvashem.org/author/nahum-bogner.html) Mark Paul's online publication, Wartime Rescue of Jews by the Polish Catholic Clergy: The Testimony of Survivors and Rescuers (http://kpk-toronto.org/wp-content/uploads/CLERGY-RESCUE-KPK-8.doc) is, by far, the most comprehensive study on this topic in any language. Other works of his were published in books that are available in scores of major libraries around the world: The Story of two shtetls: Brańsk and Ejszyszki: an overview of Polish-Jewish relations in Northeastern Poland during World War II: a collective work. Toronto ; Chicago : Polish Educational Foundation in North America, 1998. Golden Harvest or Hearts of Gold? Studies on the Fate of Wartime Poles and Jews. Edited by Marek Jan Chodakiewicz, Wojciech Jerzy Muszyński, and Paweł Styrna. Washington, D.C.: Leopolis Press, 2012.Tatzref (talk) 04:42, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

First, Kurek: self-published amateur historian --> How this below makes her an "amateur historian" @Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus?
@Tatzref and GizzyCatBella: My apologies, I made that comment before I reviewed her full publication history. Only the latter of her two English books is self-published (the one published by iUniverse) - and a such, this one book should be used with caution. Her other books indeed seem to have been published through regular publication channels (through Hippocrene Books is not an academic publisher, it doesn't seem unreliable). A lot of her Polish works are published by Wydawnictwo Clio, which does not seem to have a Polish Wikipedia article, or even a website (that I could find) to look into its reliability. (On the bright side, the unreferenced content at pl:Wydawnictwa Uniwersytetu Warszawskiego suggests the publisher might have gotten some awards from the University of Warsaw, which if right suggests some level of competency and quality). PS. I invite interested editors to expand Ewa Kurek.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 05:10, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
@Piotrus: Hippocrene Books publishes cookbooks. Kurek, while holding a PhD, never held a significant academic position, and she is barely cited by others (a handful of cites - and some of them are as a negative example of a writing genre). Per her own bio, she doesn't have a position since 2013 (out of date? retired?) and her last position is 2012-2003 – wykładowca Wyższej Szkoły Umiejętności w Kielcach - a lecturer at " Higher School of Skills in Kielce" - which seems to be a weekend/night school. Coverage of her in newspapers has been limited to her rather extreme views - How Ewa Kurek, the Favorite Historian of the Polish Far Right, Promotes Her Distorted Account of the Holocaust (2018), Kurek: Getta zbudowali Żydzi (2006) (Jews having fun in the ghettos, they had cause for celebration as they lived in an "autonomous province" negotiated with the Germans - while Poles were being rounded up and executed in Warsaw). Icewhiz (talk) 06:49, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
@Icewhiz: You seem to ignore some arguments, like the fact that Kurek's book was recommended as further reading by YW article 35. This book has had at least one perfectly reliable review 36 that also seems to be positive of her work ("Ewa Kurek's account of the Polish nuns' rescue efforts is ? to be sure ? both compelling and historically significant"; there are also some criticisms of the book, but nothing serious - awkward prose, too much musings, etc.). And HB publishes more than just cookbooks (and Kurek), it published a number of books on EE topics. She is controversial, yes, but not unreliable by default. Also, I looked at the 'Jews had fun in ghettos'/'Jews build the ghettos' criticism, and I don't think it is solid. She was simply making a point that not ALL that happened in the ghettos was miserable - they were better than concentration camps, for example. She was writing this in the context of analyzing ghetto's autonomy as a step towards Jewish statehood, and noting that ghetto administration tried, with limited resources, to provide various amenities for their citizens. The criticism of this I see in newspapers is more along the lone of 'but she didn't stress that Jewish children died in ghettos too!'. So what, this is not her point, not every work about Jews in WWII has to focus on their suffering. Calling her an anti-Semite because she writes about other aspects of Jewish life in WWII is IMHO unreasonable. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 07:06, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
Kurek indeed did receive some neutral of even mildly positive reviews early in her career. Following her shift to "Jews had fun in the ghettos" (from at least 2006) - it is very hard to find non-negative accounts of her in a WP:RS. Per google scholar this 1997 book has 12 citations - so approximately cited once every two years by someone else. Note she was mainly praised, at the time, for collecting compelling accounts (so a PRIMARY sort of thing) - and not for historical analysis. As for "Jews had fun in the ghettos", and remarks such as those here where she compares Jews to a pack of lions that throw out the weakest to be eaten or killed (coverage in RS - here)- it seems serious enough that per AP Polish officials have intervened to prevent an author accused of anti-Semitism from receiving an award at a Polish diplomatic outpost in the United States. Even a cursory look at coverage of her in any English RS written in the past decade shows massive WP:REDFLAGs.Icewhiz (talk) 07:43, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
So, first, her early research, and the first English book, seem RS. Her second one should not be used for controversial claims' about Polish-Jewish history. Which, AFAIK, isn't the case, since nobody is trying to reference 'Jews had fun in the ghettos' anywhere on Wikpedia, with or without her as a ref. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 09:15, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
A book with 12 cites, by a WP:QS author in a publisher that also published cook books? No. Very borderline RS as it is (prior to later developments) - and definitely WP:UNDUE. I'll note that it also contains at least one factual error (that Poland was the "only country with a death penalty" - this was being used to source this, and we've refuted this in other discussions). We wouldn't accept David Irving writing on Jews - regardless if they were made early in his career - nor should we accept Kurek's writings as a source prior to the later developments.Icewhiz (talk) 10:52, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
Lest I be accused of BLP issues in not stating a source: "Kurek is more subtle than Holocaust denier David Irving,” Holocaust scholar Berel Lang told the Forward. “She doesn’t deny the genocide but argues rather that the Jews were complicit with the Nazis in organizing the wartime ghetto system.”37 or She is maybe the only legitimate Holocaust scholar to have become an alleged Holocaust revisionist or distorter during a later phase of her career. When asked for potential precedents, David Silberklang, the editor-in-chief of Yad Vashem Studies and a leading expert on the Holocaust in Poland, could only think of the British Holocaust denier David Irving, who lacked Kurek’s extensive formal credentials and was never taken seriously as an academic historian.38. I will note that her tenure as a "legitimate Holocaust scholar" was not too long - perhaps a decade.Icewhiz (talk) 14:21, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
As for Paul - there are scant mentions of him in any RS, he as however been given as an example, in a footnote, in I will never forget what you did for me during the war”: Rescuer — rescuee relationships in the light of postwar correspondence in Poland, 1945–1949. Yad Vashem Studies, 39(2), 169-207.: As with the case of other dominant narratives pertaining to the memory of the Holocaust, some of the chief narratives about rescuers and Jewish survivors were formed in the early postwar period such as the myth of the “ignoble ungrateful Jew.” By the late 1960s, this myth was fully developed and utilized by the “partisan” faction within the Communist Party, led by General Mieczysław Moczar. Writers, journalists, and historians continued to disseminate the myth of “the ungrateful Jew” in publications in the 1970s and 1980s,(84) and the myth has persisted in popular historical consciousness in the post-communist era.(85) - 85 For recent mild and strong expressions of this myth see, for example, Mark Paul, ed., Wartime Rescuers of Jews by the Polish Catholic Clergy: The Testimony of Survivors (Toronto: Polish Educational Foundation in North America, 2007); .... - So a footnote mentioning his work as expressing a myth.Icewhiz (talk) 06:49, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

First of all, we should look at the source of this latest revelation: Joanna Michlic, an ideological warrior who declared certain historians such as Bogdan Musial, Marek Wierzbicki, Marek Chodakiewicz and Tomasz Strzembosz to be “nationalists,” “bigots” and “hacks.” She accuses them of doing what she herself does: viewing Polish-Jewish relations as a conflict in which one side is always right, and the other side is at fault. Joanna B. Michlic, "The Soviet Occupation of Poland, 1939–41, and the Stereotype of the Anti-Polish and Pro-Soviet Jew," Jewish Social Studies 13.3 (2007): 135-176. So we’re dealing with someone who advances very crude arguments as a way of avoiding an objective discussion of the merits. Do reputable historians share her views? Apparently not. In his review of Sowjetische Partisanen: Mythos und Wirklichkeit, Israel Holocaust historian Yehuda Bauer called Musial’s book “a most important contribution” to the history of the war, the Soviet partisans, and Polish-Jewish partisan relations in Belorussia (Yad Vashem Studies, vol. 38, no. 2). Timothy Snyder doesn’t think much of Michlic’s views either since he invited Marek Wierzbicki to contribute to the collective volume Stalin and Europe: Imitation and Domination, 1928–1953 (New York: Oxford University Press, 2014), which he edited. Is Michlic any more credible when she attacks Mark Paul, and HIS alleged expressions of the “myth” of Jewish ingratitude? The section titled “Recognition and (In)Gratitude” in Mark Paul’s Wartime Rescue of Jews by the Polish Catholic Clergy: The Testimony of Survivors and Rescuers (http://kpk-toronto.org/wp-content/uploads/CLERGY-RESCUE-KPK-8.doc) is a compilation of quotations from Jewish sources, with minimal commentary from the compiler. Mark Paul canvases a broad spectrum of Jewish viewpoints. The “offensive” sources are not Moczarites or Polish nationalists but Jewish testimonies, and it is Jewish authors who make the point that they indicate ingratitude. Here are some examples: “‘Now you see why we hate the Polacks,’ one survivor concluded her account, in which she presented many instances of Poles’ help. There was no word about hating the Germans.” Cited in Eva Hoffman, Shtetl: The Life and Death of a Small Town and the World of Polish Jews (Boston and New York: Houghton Mifflin, 1997), 245. “The Wanderers were among the luckiest Jewish families in town. Both parents and the girls survived the war. They were hidden successively by several Polish families. After the war, the Wanderers emigrated to America. I sent the Wanderer sisters information about the Regulas, one of the Polish families in whose house on the outskirts of Brzezany they had hid after the Judenrein roundup. I hoped that they would start the procedure of granting them the Righteous Gentiles award, but nothing came of it. … When I called Rena, the older one, and asked whether a young Polish historian, a colleague of mine who was doing research in New York, could interview her for my project on Brzezany, her reaction was curt and clear: ‘I hate all Polacks.’ … Rena advised me not to present the Poles in too favorable a way ‘for the sake of our martyrs.’” Shimon Redlich, Together and Apart in Brzezany: Poles, Jews, and Ukrainians, 1918–1945 (Bloomington and Indianapolis: Indiana University Press, 2002), 22. Liwa Gomułka, the wife of Communist leader Władysław Gomułka, “refused to see an old Polish woman who had hidden her during the Nazi occupation and had come to her for some small favour.” Michael Checinski, Poland: Communism, Nationalism, Anti-Semitism (New York: Karz-Cohl, 1982), 143. So before attributing something to Mark Paul one should actually read his publications, which are copiously and meticulously referenced. A Tangled Web contains more than 1800 footnotes. The quarrel, it seems, is almost always with the evidence that Mark Paul has unearthed, and in many, if not most cases, the problematic evidence is based on a Jewish source. Tatzref (talk) 00:13, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

While I don't disagree with much of your argument, I'll note that the actionable quarrel here, re:Paul, is that he is not publishing in WP:RS. While Michlic seems to have engaged in some academic slandering, she has nonetheless published it in peer reviewed sources. Even if Paul's scholarship is better (and I am not saying it is), since he, unlike her, is not publishing in academic press, is is much less acceptable of a source. Perhaps it is his choice, but we have to also consider the fact that his articles where rejected from reliable academic journals, the same journals that Michlic seems to be able to publish in. Again, I think Paul is acceptable as a source for non-controversial statements, but from WP:RS perspective (which does not consider WP:NPOV or such), Michlic is better. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 03:42, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
Michlic's footnote about Paul (as well as her writing on the more notable far-right historians) was published in a WP:RS - mainline sources covering Historiography - this is not "slander" (a BLP vio, by the way, which might be used to describe a letter to the editor) - but bona fida research findings. Michlic's characterizations, given where they were published, may be used as a WP:RS for historiographical information on the subjects she treated in her research. Whether editors like or dislike her research findings carries little weight.Icewhiz (talk) 11:48, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

Paul's evidence

@Tatzref: Re evidence that Mark Paul has unearthed... - if the evidence is valuable, why has it not been published in peer-reviewed publications? Is there some sort of a conspiracy going on? K.e.coffman (talk) 00:25, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

Exactly. By choosing not to (or not being able) to publish in peer reviewed works (and there are plenty of low key but borderline reliable Polish peer reviewed journals which would welcome English works), his works appear much less reliable than those of others. That's the problem with citing non-academic sources. Bottom line, in the long run, all such sources should be removed from Wikipedia (through they can be used for now if they are non-controversial).— Preceding unsigned comment added by Piotrus (talkcontribs)

A memoir from 1864?

Thoughts, please! At Giorgi family, is this source:

  • Viscountess Emily Anne Beaufort Smythe Strangford (1864). The Eastern Shores of the Adriatic in 1863: With a Visit to Montenegro. R. Bentley. pp. 129–.

reliable for a statement that "the Giorgi family received patrician status in 930"? Please note that the Enciclopedia Italiana of 1937 gives 964 as the date of the first documented mention of the family, as does the current online version of Treccani; that date may perhaps refer only to documentation within what is now Italy. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 09:14, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

I think a memoir can generally only be treated as a reliable primary source on things the subject actually witnessed or did, unless they are published experts in some other field. —DIYeditor (talk) 02:16, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
Add "according to...". François Robere (talk) 15:11, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

Washington Press

It appears to me that Washington Press may be fake news, or unreliable at best. See the article about a Texas school teacher who died because of complications with flu. Local ABC News presented the story accurately. I can't find any information about who funds the publication, their staff writers, etc. Need some input as to how to rate this source on the quality scale of RS. Atsme📞📧 23:33, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

  • Not Reliable They appear to be a fairly obscure political propaganda website masquerading as a news outlet. Their website alone screams amateur. Almost every headline is sensationalist and employs the word "just" as in somebody (invariably on the right) just did something horrible. What little I could find on them via a Google suggests that to the extent anyone seems to have noticed them they are regarded as hard left in their political biases. That is not ipso facto evidence of being unreliable, but I can't find anything that suggests they have the kind of rigorous oversight and fact checking that one expects from RS sources. Unless/until that changes, I would oppose citing this entity for any claims of fact. -Ad Orientem (talk) 01:19, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose use. Not even opinionated but propaganda-like. I did look for some kind of oversight and couldn't find anything. I do hate the term fake news.I would just say, not reliable per our standards.(Littleolive oil (talk) 02:11, 16 May 2018 (UTC))
  • Not reliable - As Ad Orientem noted, sensationalist article titles with no proof of fact checking. However, on their About Me page, they state "In an age of fake news, we are a trusted source with a track-record of honesty and integrity"... debatable. Meatsgains(talk) 02:32, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
  • Comment They have a profile page in the website Media Bias/Fact Check, which describes them as an extremely biased news source: "In review, Washington Press presents news with a borderline extreme left wing bias that always favors the left and is always anti-Trump and the political right. There is frequent and very strong use of loaded words in both headlines and articles such as this: “Trump just declared war on the First Amendment in an unhinged cabinet meeting.” The Washington Press usually sources their information to credible mainstream media outlets, however they sometimes use poor sources such as Shareblue, which has a mixed record with fact checking. Although we could not find a specific failed fact check by the Washington Press, we still rate them mixed factually due to the use of a known poor source and extremely loaded language that can be misleading and change the context of information. Overall, we rate Washington Press far left biased based on story selection that always favors the left and mixed for factual reporting." Dimadick (talk) 18:58, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
  • Not reliable - No evidence of a track record of fact-checking, no identifiable editorial staff, no contact information beyond an e-mail... all the hallmarks of something we should stringently avoid. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 19:05, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
  • Not reliable. Fake news site is not an unreasonable description: it masquerades as a news website, but isn't one. Guy (Help!) 19:16, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
  • Not reliable Appears to have no editorial oversight at all.--MONGO 15:24, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

Company registers RfC

Talk:List of company registers

This begs for deletion at AfD because most of the entries have no article and do not appear notable. WP:NOTDIRECTORY. Wikipedia does not include external links in lists but references with them might be appropriate. —DIYeditor (talk) 20:13, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
That is what I was thinking as well but I wanted to push for an RfC for sources before that. Gotitbro (talk) 00:12, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

Horrorview.com

These diffs3940 makes me want to ask if Died with Boots On at Horrorview.com is a reliable (and notable) source. Especially since we have other sources saying it's a documentary. // Liftarn (talk) 11:02, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

@Liftarn:That does not appear to be a reliable source. Also, a mockumentary is a movie presented as a documentary. i.e., its fictional. From the description of this title (https://dvd.netflix.com/Movie/The-Atomic-Cafe/60022779) it just appears to be a compilation of different footage, it is not a mockumentary in its basic sense. Gotitbro (talk) 22:00, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

An article from NYC Transit about NYC Subway signals published in a predatory journal

For context, I (epicgenius (talk)) haven't posted this edit. I wanted to put some details, with a source, into the Signaling of the New York City Subway. It was written by an employee for New York City Transit Authority, the operator of New York City Subway, as well as an employee for Parsons Brinckerhoff, a NYCTA contractor. However, when I tried to save the edit I got this: "Warning: An automated filter has identified this edit as introducing references to a predatory open access journal. If you are confident that you want to cite this source anyway, please click 'Publish changes' again. Note that citations to predatory journals are routinely removed."

  1. Source. https://www.witpress.com/Secure/elibrary/papers/9781845644949/9781845644949002FU1.pdf
  2. Article. Signaling of the New York City Subway (didn't actually save the edit)
  3. Content. Well, I haven't actually added it, but here was what I was going to add:

The MTA's form of CBTC uses a reduced form of the old fixed-block signaling system, which serves as an "auxiliary wayside system".Witpress Source: 16  On lines equipped with CBTC, this has resulted in increased maintenance costs for the double signaling system.Another Source When CBTC is in operation on a line, that line's block signals display a flashing green indicator.Witpress Source: 16 

...

The CBTC contract was awarded to joint venture of Siemens, Union Switch & Signal, and L.K. Comstock & Company Inc. in late 1999. Installation of the signal system was begun in 2000.Witpress Source: 14 

My question is, should I even use this source? epicgenius (talk) 22:31, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

If someone has tagged that as a predatory journal it is probably for a good reason. Predatory journals should mostly be avoided as they have little or no review of articles. If you want to add that information probably use a better source (which should be there if the content published has merit). Gotitbro (talk) 22:14, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

Can reddit comments from article subjects be cited as reliable self-published sources?

On an article I intend to improve, specifically Discord, there is some important information about the article subject I want to cite, such as that it (which is a software company) has publicly stated that it has no intention to open its source (reddit comment source)—which has been, and remains, proprietary—despite inviting open-source communities to use its software (source). Unfortunately, the company is not very vocal about these matters and the majority of this information comes from reddit comments in the official subreddit of the company by official representatives and spokespeople of the company (designated as such by the subreddit).

So long as I cite the specific comment's permalink (perhaps with an archived copy), would this be an acceptable use of self-published social media content per WP:SELFPUB? I have searched the Help desk archives and the closest I could find is 2016 November 18 § Citing a Reddit AMA?, which seems to maybe support doing so, but this is obviously a somewhat different case. I have also searched the RS/N archives and the closest I could find are the following, none of which specifically address this issue with any clear consensus:

My guess is probably not even though it might technically pass WP:SELFPUB, but I might as well ask anyway. Perhaps some future archive searcher will find this helpful. Thanks for whatever help you all are willing to provide. ―Nøkkenbuer (talkcontribs) 19:26, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

Reddit as with other discussion boards and forums isn't considered a reliable source. If you want to include such info you should probably see if a reliable source has reported about it. Gotitbro (talk) 18:24, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
Such sources are indeed not generally considered reliable, Gotitbro; however, self-published social media content by a subject is acceptable under certain circumstances and qualifies as verifiable, including from Reddit. (Curiously, Reddit is mentioned in WP:SELFPUB, but not in WP:SELFSOURCE.) I understand that reddit comments are generally considered to obviously be unreliable (and for good reason), but this is a very specific case in which the reddit comments are from the software company that owns and operates the subject itself, that subject being the namesake software of that company.
Does this specific case qualify under these special conditions? That is the crux of this matter. Short of the CEO making the statements, this is basically the closest one could meaningfully get to the software itself (or Discord Inc.) stating anything about itself on Reddit. If this does not qualify as a reliable source per WP:SELFPUB and WP:SELFSOURCE, then perhaps we need to clarify as much in those sections.
If a better source was available, such as an official blog post or a tech site news report detailing the same information, I would not even bother with this edge-case scenario since I do not want to be citing reddit comments either. However, Discord Inc.—which tries incredibly hard to be, like, totally kewl bruh—often communicates official positions through its subreddit and I want to ensure that information is included given its importance to the readers. It is not much of a surprise to me that Discord Inc. has not been more vocal about its refusal to open its source code, either, since it actively encourages open-source software and communities on its platform and opening its source has been a perennial proposal and complaint from its users. With all this in mind, how should I proceed in this specific case? More importantly, what policy or guideline improvement can we derive from this situation, since it seems technically unclear here?
Thanks for your time. ―Nøkkenbuer (talkcontribs) 20:07, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
I am not familiar with Discord but if you feel this is important you can try including it if the statement was made from an official account. Also tag the material with better source needed or unreliable source?. Gotitbro (talk) 21:50, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
While it would be reliable for what the company reported, reliance on primary sources can create a neutrality problem. Information reported by a company may be misleading. It could be for example that the company intends to open its source, and made the statement in order to counter rumors. In that case we would be repeating false information, possibly to the detriment of the public. Fortunately, professional journalists are able to use judgment when reading company statements and determine whether they are credible. If a reliable source picks up a statement then it might be proper to report it. If the statement is questionable, one would expect the journalists to note that. TFD (talk) 02:39, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

Kworb.net

I saw an user added to Wikipedia:CHART that this website kworb.net can be used to validate YouTube views and Spotify numbers. But nothing validates they post official data. For example, it claims "Look What You Made Me Do" did 49.9M views in one day, while Billboard said it did 43.2M. How many factual errors they "estimate" and post.. I believe that website should be avoided. Cornerstonepicker (talk) 18:09, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

It is a personal website/blog of someone (http://kworb.net/faq.html) which doesn't even site cite its data source. Unreliable, no editorial oversight should be avoided. Gotitbro (talk) 22:08, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
I concur; this is a rather dubious reference. Snuggums (talk / edits) 05:48, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

"By the media" qualification

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


In this sentence from AR-15 style rifle, does the phrase "widely characterized as the weapon of choice for perpetrators of these crimes" need to be attributed with a qualifier such as "by the media" or "in the media"?

While most gun killings in the United States are with handguns,123 AR-15 style rifles have played "an oversized role in many of the most high-profile"1 mass shootings in the United States, and have come to be widely characterized by the media as the weapon of choice for perpetrators of these crimes.456789101112 AR-15 variants have been used in mass shootings in the United States including the 2012 Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting, 2012 Aurora shooting, 2015 San Bernardino attack,13 the 2017 Sutherland Springs church shooting,14 the 2017 Las Vegas shooting,14 and the 2018 Stoneman Douglas High School shooting.15


References

  1. ^ a b "In Many U.S. States, 18 Is Old Enough to Buy a Semiautomatic". CBS News. The Associated Press. February 16, 2018. Retrieved February 19, 2018. On average, more than 13,000 people are killed each year in the United States by guns, and most of those incidents involve handguns while a tiny fraction involve an AR-style firearm. Still, the AR plays an oversized role in many of the most high-profile shootings...
  2. ^ "Expanded Homicide Data Table 4". 2016 Crime in the United States. Federal Bureau of Investigation. Retrieved 2018-02-26.
  3. ^ Balko, Radley (2013-07-09). Rise of the Warrior Cop: The Militarization of America's Police Forces. PublicAffairs. ISBN 9781610392129.
  4. ^ Smith, Aaron (June 21, 2016). "Why the AR-15 is the mass shooter's go-to weapon". CNN. Retrieved February 15, 2018. The AR-15, the type of rifle used in the deadliest mass shooting in U.S. history, is the weapon of choice for mass killers.
  5. ^ Picchi, Aimee (June 15, 2016). "America's rifle: The marketing of assault-style weapons". CBS MoneyWatch. CBS News. Retrieved February 23, 2018. America has grown accustomed to military-style semi-automatic weapons such as the AR-15. It's not hard to see why: These firearms have been heavily marketed to gun owners. But at the same time, they're often the weapons of choice for mass murderers.
  6. ^ Zhang, Sarah (June 17, 2016). "What an AR-15 Can Do to the Human Body". Wired. Retrieved March 3, 2018. The AR-15 is America's most popular rifle. It has also been the weapon of choice in mass shootings from Sandy Hook to Aurora to San Bernardino.
  7. ^ Williams, Joseph P. (November 7, 2017). "How the AR-15 Became One of the Most Popular Guns in America, A brief history of the guns that have become the weapons of choice for mass shootings". U.S. News & World Report. Retrieved February 15, 2018. They're lightweight, relatively cheap and extremely lethal, inspired by Nazi infantrymen on the Eastern Front during World War II. They're so user-friendly some retailers recommend them for children, yet their design is so aggressive one marketer compared them to carrying a "man card" -- although ladies who dare can get theirs in pink. And if the last few mass shootings are any indication, guns modeled after the AR-15 assault rifle -- arguably the most popular, most enduring and most profitable firearm in the U.S. -- have become the weapon of choice for unstable, homicidal men who want to kill a lot of people very, very quickly.
  8. ^ Jansen, Bart; Cummings, William (November 6, 2017). "Why mass shooters are increasingly using AR-15s". USA Today. Retrieved February 15, 2018. AR-15 style rifles have been the weapon of choice in many recent mass shootings, including the Texas church shooting Sunday, the Las Vegas concert last month, the Orlando nightclub last year and Sandy Hook Elementary School in 2012.
  9. ^ Oppel Jr., Richard A. (February 15, 2018). "In Florida, an AR-15 Is Easier to Buy Than a Handgun". The New York Times. Retrieved February 15, 2018. The N.R.A. calls the AR-15 the most popular rifle in America. The carnage in Florida on Wednesday that left at least 17 dead seemed to confirm that the rifle and its variants have also become the weapons of choice for mass killers.
  10. ^ Lloyd, Whitney (February 16, 2018). "Why AR-15-style rifles are popular among mass shooters". ABC News. Retrieved March 2, 2018. AR-15-style rifles have become something of a weapon of choice for mass shooters.
  11. ^ Beckett, Lois (February 16, 2018). "Most Americans can buy an AR-15 rifle before they can buy beer". The Guardian. Retrieved March 2, 2018. While AR-15 style rifles have become the weapon of choice for some of America's most recent and deadly mass shootings, these military-style guns are still comparatively rarely used in everyday gun violence.
  12. ^ Samis, Max (April 22, 2018). "Brady Campaign Responds to Developments in Nashville Waffle House Shooting". Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence. Retrieved May 4, 2018. Kris Brown, co-president of the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, stated, 'It adds insult to the literal injuries and loss of life suffered by today's victims that even though the killer was known to be too dangerous to have guns, his father chose to rearm him including, reportedly, with the AR-15 used this morning, a weapon of war that now happens to be the weapon of choice in far too many mass killings in America.'
  13. ^ Cite error: The named reference NYT 13 June 2016 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  14. ^ a b "Why the AR-15 keeps appearing at America's deadliest mass shootings". USA Today. Retrieved 22 February 2018.
  15. ^ Shapiro, Emily (February 14, 2018). "At least 17 dead in 'horrific' Florida school shooting, suspect had 'countless magazines'". ABC News. Archived from the original on February 15, 2018. Retrieved February 15, 2018.

Relevant talk page discussions: 41 (Active), 42 43

Discussion

I would say not, is it only characterized as such by the media? Here is a clue, one of the sources is not a media organisation.Slatersteven (talk) 15:16, 6 May 2018 (UTC)
  • Per the sources provided, the label "weapon of choice" is applied by the media and by gun control groups that advocate bans related to such weapons. The label is not applied by experts such as criminologists nor sources such as the FBI. As a contentious label the best solution would be to sidestep the issue and avoid it per wp:label. It's use isn't encyclopedic and replacing with a less contentious label doesn't negatively impact the article. Springee (talk) 16:37, 6 May 2018 (UTC)
  • The exact words in the reference given from there claimed experts were "In some mass shootings", don't see how you could assert "weapon of choice" from that. This distction is only stated by the media. -72bikers (talk) 19:27, 6 May 2018 (UTC)
Do the FBI or criminologists not say this, sources. And we are not saying this is a fact, we are saying it is an opinion.Slatersteven (talk) 16:45, 6 May 2018 (UTC)
If the FBI or criminologists dispute this characterization, find some reliable sources that say so and add that to the article. As for gun control groups, they are of course rather well-informed on the use of guns in crimes. Waleswatcher (talk) 19:20, 6 May 2018 (UTC)
Wait what, are you asking that we find a expert that contradicts your non-existing expert support? -72bikers (talk) 19:41, 6 May 2018 (UTC)
Found it, its in your chosen expert support reference that clearly states "In some mass shootings". -72bikers (talk) 19:41, 6 May 2018 (UTC)
"The label is not applied by experts such as criminologists nor sources such as the FBI."that is what we are asking for a source to back up.Slatersteven (talk) 19:43, 6 May 2018 (UTC)
Ohh and according to other sources "is the weapon of choice for mass killers.", so lets not pretend they all say the same thing. This is about RS, RS use the term "is the weapon of choice for mass killers." (or variants of). This is not the NPOV or Fringe notice board. RS say it so we can say RS say it.Slatersteven (talk) 19:46, 6 May 2018 (UTC)
  • Adding "by the media" violates NPOV in this context, because in this context "the media" have been presented as an enemy of guns and as biased against them. Furthermore, I cannot think of any way to establish that something has been "widely characterized" in some way other than by referencing articles in the media that make that characterization - so there is no need to say "by the media", especially considering the sources are listed right there. Lastly, the implication here is that "the media" is making something up on its own rather than reporting facts or the opinions of sources. Media articles are considered per wikipedia policy as reliable secondary sources. Treating these sources otherwise violates WP policy. Waleswatcher (talk) 19:16, 6 May 2018 (UTC)
  • Adding "by the media" is redundant and unnecessary. Also, it's wrong; see this piece that's marshalling arguments in favor of your local police department buying some, precisely because this class of rifle is the "weapon of choice" (who are aiming at law enforcement as well as civilians). This article draws a distinction between terrorist attacks and fatal ones, and the significantly increased chance of dying means that these high-power rifles are responsible for a higher than average number of deaths (as opposed to injuries). I think, though, that some of the people who are concerned by this statement might want to read weapon of choice (and maybe to link to that article). This characterization is about the iconic nature of the weapon in popular culture, rather than the actual statistical use. WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:59, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
This is were careful reading of sources is needed. That source doesn't say AR-15 or mass shooters. Saying by the media is important if the experts in the field don't make the same claim. Again per WP:label we should just side step the issue and drop the label. Springee (talk) 10:12, 7 May 2018 (UTC) Zdroj:https://en.wikipedia.org?pojem=Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_241
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