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See the two pdfs in this edit . I'd say they aren't as there is no proof they are original. Dougweller (talk) 18:36, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

Looks like someone's spent a lot of time on the article. I'd say the pdfs pass RS, but the material should not be included in the article per WP:PRIMARY, because they do nothing to establish that the activities they describe are noteworthy for inclusion in an encyclopaedia. The article already goes into sufficient detail about every single other thing the subject has ever done. --FormerIP (talk) 18:49, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia depends to some degree on the honesty of its editors when it comes to obscure citations like those in specialized libraries. Were the pdfs being used right, I would say they are innocent until proven guilty. B^e——C_{ritical__Talk} 19:54, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

I'm drafting an article about a recently deceased biologist and found this obituary published by Connecticut State Museum of Natural History which the subject was the founding director of. The only thing is that it is only found on facebook and I am apprehensive about using it because of this. Does this count as reliable? (If I reference it I will archive a copy so that it can't go dead). Thanks SmartSE (talk) 20:26, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

What if you contacted them for confirmation? B^e——C_{ritical__Talk} 20:36, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

I could, but based on this it is pretty obviously official and other facts match up, it's just that I wouldn't normally consider anything published on facebook as reliable! SmartSE (talk) 20:42, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

Yeah I saw that too. It technically falls under self-published, but it actually looks like the policy is out-dated and was made before institutions started using facebook. The source looks reliable to me, without actually reading it. If you really think you'll be questioned on it, I guess you better get confirmation, but if it were me I'd use it but be ready to defend having used it. Just my opinion though. B^e——C_{ritical__Talk} 20:59, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

On the Museum's main page, they have a 'Follow us on Facebook' link. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 21:02, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

B^e——C_{ritical__Talk} 21:06, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

There are references to old results that are given on a fan site. I understand that the tournament was started as a competition sponsored by supporters (fan) groups, but is this an acceptable source? The results seem to have achieved consensus in any case. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 00:00, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

• Is Hammer to Nail a reliable source for commentary on indi movies? The site is prominent in the indi circuit. It was co-founded by Ted Hope, one of the prominent figures in the scene Its editors are notable enough to have pages in indieWire too. In particular, Michael Nordine, who wrote the review for Korkoro, also writes for LA Weekly and Slant Magazine(LA, Slant and indieWire). Another indi movie magazine, Filmmaker (magazine) quite often features Hammer to Nail reviews such as this. I was also able to find this review published in Film Independent's website, which presents the Independent Spirit Awards. It is also not so uncommon to find Hammer to Nail's comments listed in the press releases of movies along with mainstream magazines. So, can we use Hammer to Nail for indi movie articles?

• Patrin is widely recognised as a reliable source by the academics for Roma studies. With google, I was able to find lots of academic papers using Patrin as a source, such as this University of Arizona paper and this Oxford paper. Stanford university lists Patrin as a reliable source for information on ethnic conflicts. Lots of books on the Roma have used Patrin as a source. (1, 2, 3, 4 and 5). United Nations High Commission for Refugees recognises this as a reliable source. There have been articles on BBC and Natgeo too, using Patrin as a source. So, is Patrin a reliable source for articles on Roma history?

Thanks _morelMW^illiam 02:18, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

I see no problem with Patrin's credentials as a source. From what I can see, Hammer to Nail has a fixed staff and editorial oversight, which would elevate above being considered a blog/fansite. That would satisfy me as to its reliability. Though, to be fair, I'm not exactly an expert so another opinion might also be useful if anyone wanted to agree with me or dispute me. GRAPPLE X 05:04, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Patrin definitely appears to be reliable; I see numerous citations for it in academic journals. I am not as sold on Hammer to Nail. I'd consider Michael Tully's opinions to be notable for commentary, but I don't see the website being consistently referenced by other sites. I'd say it is conditional and only use it for the opinions of Michael Tully or other notable figures, and not use the one for Korkoro or use the website for factual information. --Odie5533 (talk) 13:08, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

Hammer to Nail caters to indi cinema; it HAS been consistently used for the reviews in Filmmaker (magazine). I don't get it when one expects an indi movie film review site to be referenced in mainstream ones. Moreover, Michael Nordine, who wrote Korkoro's review, is a Los Angeles based film critic who writes for Slant Magazine and LA Weekly too. So, a review written by Michael Nordine in Slant can be used while the one written by him for Hammer to Nail cannot be? Am I the one who misunderstood the WP:SPS? It states "with the exception of material on such sites that is labeled as originating from credentialed members of the sites' editorial staff, rather than users.". Hammer to Nail is not a user generated content site and all its writers are film critics in other magazines too. As it is a website for film criticisms, it would usually be used with attribution in the text body. So, no question about factual information.

There are a few questions here: 1) Is the source reliable for facts? 2) Is the source reliable for opinions? 3) Is the source notable? 2 generally gets a pass unless the source is proven to publish false interviews or something really low like that. I haven't really established 3 entirely, but my initial impression is that the publication itself is not notable. Thus, the opinions of the publication as expressed through its writers are not really that notable either (you could argue fringe cases I suppose). When Michael Nordine writes an article in a larger publication, he isn't just publishing his own work but he has the backing of the reputation of the entire publication. Is Michael Nordine such a notable person that all of his opinions are notable? I do not believe so. Although you don't specifically ask to consider the first question (your question was if it was a "reliable source for commentary"), I'll say that I don't think the site is reliable for factual information either. They don't have an editorial policy (do they watch the movies they review?), they don't have a list of editors, and I don't believe they have built a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy within the industry. Do they edit any of the articles they post? One would like to assume so, but based on the objective facts they do not appear to.

I am curious, is "indi" short for "independent" (which I usually see abbreviated as "indie") or is it short for "indian" or something else? --Odie5533 (talk) 22:18, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

Regarding the notability of Hammer to Nail, did you miss the press release of a movie that I linked in my first post? Why would a not so notable website's comments feature in such many movies' press releases? Here is a reference to it on The Wall Street Journal. Here is a reference to a Hammer to Nail interview in Senses of Cinema. Here is a coverage of the launch party for Hammer to Nail on Variety (magazine). You could have done some googling than assuming on its editorial policy. There is an indieWire link that I provided in my first post which states that Michael Tully is indeed the editor cum head writer. Here is a Filmmaker (magazine) article stating the same, along with introducing the site to its readers and its new policy to host critical commentary from then on, with content from Hammer to Nail. I was also able to find coverage on the Hammer to Nail awards presented by the site on Filmmaker (magazine) (this), GreenCine Daily(this) and on indieWire(this). The site has received mention in multiple third party sources. That makes it notable. And it does have an editorial policy! By the way, weren't you able to infer from the site on which indi I was talking about? I was indeed referring to Independent Cinema. Thanks. _morelMW^illiam 11:16, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Based on a few of the sources you provided, it appears marginally notable but perhaps not very reputable. Movie press releases do not count for anything; advertising agencies will seek out any source imaginable to find someone that will say that the thing they are selling is worth buying. The reference from Senses of Cinema and GreenCine are trivial and do not support the notability of Hammer to Nail. The only two that support notability are the indieWire and FilmMakerMagazine articles. You stated that Hammer to Nail does have an editorial policy. I would very much like to read it. Where can I find it? Also, please WP:AGF in the future. --Odie5533 (talk) 11:52, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

I did assume good faith. What about the reference on WSJ? I wouldn't buy your sermon on the advertising folks. They wouldn't find it suiting to include some nondescript source in the limited space that they have to use. The references, though trivial, acknowledge the commentary that goes on at Hammer to Nail, and well, it also means that these sources used Hammer to Nail for supporting their facts. GreenCine daily had many other articles too, quoting the comments by reviewers at Hammer to Nail. These establish the way HTN reviews are being received. You stated earlier that they have no list of editors and now are asking for its editorial policy. We can only think what an editor is supposed to do. Here is what I found on what he thinks of his role and here is a comment by a staff writer. And every article gives attribution to its writer. Moreover, Senses of Cinema has writers who also write for Hammer to Nail, and these articles introduce the writers as Hammer to Nail contributers. If it had been some non notable SPS, I don't think it would have deserved such mention. Every other reference to Michael Tully introduces him as the head writer/ founder / editor of HTN. I wouldn't regard it wise to introduce a rather notable person with a not so notable website. _morelMW^illiam 13:00, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

I could not read the WSJ reference. I concede that the site is weakly notable, but I am still concerned that it is not reliable. I can not determine that it has a history of fact-checking and accuracy. You stated earlier, "And it does have an editorial policy!", but now you're saying that the policy maintains a more figurative existence. I recommend not using the site for factual information, and I would personally not use the site for reviews except for ones written by Michael Tully. --Odie5533 (talk) 15:46, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

While you might personally choose to not use HTN for reviews, it has other takers such as WSJ. Here is the part which refers to HTN : " Writing on the Hammer to Nail film blog in 2009, "Tiny Furniture" director Lena Dunham—who was born 16 years after "David Holzman" was produced—speculated that the slyly self-conscious conceit presaged a "future of webcams, reality TV and Slacker culture." GreenCine Daily too has quoted the comments by HTN writers. It has coverage in multiple third party sources such as Filmmaker, indieWire and WSJ. How would that make it 'weakly notable' as per WP policies? Or is it an another personal comment? Regarding the editorial policy, do you expect to find something like 'I sweep through my staff writers' criticisms. So, I am the head writer/ editor' from Tully? _morelMW^illiam 07:27, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

What I would expect for a site to really prove notability is a sizable review or analysis of the site published by a reliable source. They are quoting comments here and there. Even the quotes some of the sites make are just "Michael Tully writes" and then the citation says that it was written in the Hammer to Nail. The WSJ reference again uses the author's reputation in addition to stating where the comments were written. That is why I said it is weakly notable, and I stand by my assessment. Here is the New York Times's editorial policy. --Odie5533 (talk) 01:53, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

In regard to Is the source notable?, do we require that sources be notable? Most of the sources we use are not notable, or are written by non-notable people. In regard to Hammer to Nail, I don't think it is inherently reliable, as it seems like a group blog, but I think it might be used with care for non-controversial statements such as plot summaries, much in the limited way we allow use of IMDB. I would add that any articles there posted by recognized experts should be considered reliable per WP:SPS, which says Self-published material may be acceptable when produced by an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications. So if an article is written by someone with a history of publications in magazines and journals, I think that would be considered reliable. --Nuujinn (talk) 10:00, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

In that case, the writer of the article that has been used for Korkoro, who also writes for Slant Magazine, Reverse Shot, LA Weekly and Not Coming to a Theatre Near You, becomes eligible to have his commentary used in Wikipedia. Another point to be noted is that all the writers at HTN are either notable film makers or film critics who also write for other publications. _morelMW^illiam 12:22, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

In regards to Nuujinn's comments: I would not say most sources used on Wikipedia are not notable, but I'd agree that some are not notable (how can one maintain a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy without having any reputation to speak of?). The question I posed is to help determine whether or not the commentary of a publication is useful for inclusion in Wikipedia. I do not believe the comments of a non-notable publication are, well, notable for inclusion as comments of anything. However, if the source is determined to be reliable, then perhaps the comments are not useful but the facts are. Others might not agree with my assessment here, but I think the question at least helps to determine what commentaries are useful for inclusion because commentaries from unreliable sources are sometimes still useful as opinions. I hope this makes sense. --Odie5533 (talk) 21:19, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

In regards to MorelMWilliam's comments: In the article, Korkoro, it states "Hammer to Nail wrote that ...". If you are basing the inclusion of the comments on the author's reputation and not on the publication's reputation, I think you should change it to "Michael Nordine wrote that ..." or at least include his name. --Odie5533 (talk) 21:19, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

I think the latter makes good sense. --Nuujinn (talk) 00:41, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

Michael Nordine is now given the attribution for HTN statements in Korkoro. But the question now rests on HTN's notability. With coverage in multiple third party sources, which includes full featured articles in Filmmaker and indieWire and references to criticism published in HTN in multiple other sources, why isn't it notable? Thanks for the NYT editorial policy link. Could you fetch LA Weekly's too for me? Also, for a film criticism site isn't it common to have disclaimers that free the editors from holding responsibility for the authors' statements published? _morelMW^illiam 06:25, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

"Could you fetch LA Weekly's too for me?". Your words are insulting; I am not your dog. Let me know when you wish to continue actual discussion. --Odie5533 (talk) 13:07, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

"The Neverending Nightmare of Amanda Knox" by Nathaniel Rich is used for several sole-source statements in the Murder of Meredith Kercher article. While Rolling Stone is generally a reliable source, this particular piece seems to be a partially fictionalized account of the murder.

Of many questionable passages, the most egregious is on page 5 where there is an extended dialog of Knox's interrogation which the author himself admits, further down the page, was never recorded. It seems highly likely that the author imagined it.

Those of us who edit MoMK are used to sources with factual errors, but at what point can we agree that the author has taken too much literary license and deem the piece as a whole unreliable? Brmull (talk) 18:44, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

There is no evidence that any part of this is fictionalized, and the passages that this is used to source are not particularly controversial. Quite honestly, if this editor wished to work collaboratively rather than disruptively, I'm sure we can find second sources for some of the statements in the article. For those editors not familiar with the article, there are several editors on each "side" of this issue which contribute regularly, and no one else had a problem with these edits because the source is obviously a RS and it comports with other accounts. The reason the source was used as much as it was is because it was a good "summary" article at a time when most article were "update" articles. But as I said, because none of the statements sourced in here are particularly controversial and because they comport with other accounts, everyone at the article talk page ok'd these edits, despite the fact that discussions over there can be quite contentious.LedRush (talk) 20:43, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

You sure haven't lost you incivility, have you...TMCk (talk) 21:26, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Would you like to make a constructive comment on the subject?LedRush (talk) 22:15, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Also, it seems that the RS source is used 4 times in the article. In 2 of those times, it is used with another source, and two of those times it is used as the sole source. For one of those sources, it makes a direct quote of one of the prosecutor's which is easily checked on the internet, and we use the source with direct attribution to Rolling Stone. That leaves only one statement. "Knox has maintained that she was with Sollecito at the time, but during police questioning after 10 pm on Monday November 5th 2007, Sollecito said that he could not be certain she was with him when he was asleep." This generally comports with the other accounts and RSs on this subject.LedRush (talk) 22:15, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

I'd like if possible to get others' input on whether this is a RS. We've already tried to collaborate on specific cites which I'll summarize again on the talk page. Brmull (talk) 22:50, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

"It seems highly likely that the author imagined it"...is original research unless you have an RS which states this.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► 00:17, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Yes, the assertion that Berean points to above caused me pause as well, and I am also curious as to the support for it.--Epeefleche (talk) 17:07, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

• Rolling Stone has a long tradition of in-depth coverage on topics of interest to its readers that would make it more of a reliable source than the many superficial tabloid newspaper accounts and blog articles strewn throughout the article. That's where the real problem with fictionalized versions of events exists. Based upon the editor's previous actions, it seems clear that he wishes it were not a reliable source solely because he disagrees with its conclusions, largely based upon opinions formed from reading early tabloid reports that have since been proven erroneous. DreamGuy (talk) 01:02, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

As someone who knows a bit about the case, I'd say this article presents a good case study for the "verification vs truth" debate. It's full of inaccuracies, but RS is an RS, so what can you do? At present I'd say it's pointless worrying about the state of the MoMK article, because the appeal verdict is so imminent and, whatever the outcome, the article will soon need a serious revamp. --FormerIP (talk) 01:13, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

It's not original research if the same page that has the purported dialog says that the dialog was not recorded. It's self evident that it was made up. That goes beyond "truth versus verifiability". It goes to question of "truth versus fiction." Brmull (talk) 06:14, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

The article makes it pretty clear that the quotes were Knox's account of the interrogation. There is no discrepency at all between reporting what happened (via Knox's account) and saying there was no recording done. Your issue seems to be that the author believes Knox's account, and not the police account. Seeing as the Italian Supreme Court threw out the "confession", it seems that maybe they also didn't believe the police account.LedRush (talk) 15:22, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

You say it's "pretty clear" (on what evidence I don't know) that the quotes were Knox's account of the interrogation. Then isn't it also pretty clear that the paragraph immediately preceding, which describes Sollecito's interrogation, is also a defence account, and should be attributed as such in the article? Brmull (talk) 19:46, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

If you read the article, you'll seAmanda-Knoxs-note.htmle that it says "The most remarkable thing about Knox's account of the interrogation is that, even as she signed her confession, she didn't realize that she was a suspect." It says this right after the section in which he relates what happened in the interrogation.LedRush (talk) 20:02, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Okay, if that interpretation is correct, then where does Paxton's account of Knox's account begin? Does it include the sentence, "Sollecito finally stated that Knox could have left his apartment for several hours on the night of Kercher's murder while he was asleep"? Because that is most certainly false, according to Sollecito's confession released by the police and published in Corriere and several British newspapers. Brmull (talk) 09:31, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

No, Knox's account does not include Sollecito's account, obviously. And I don't see a conflict with Sollecito's other statements as reported in reliable sources and this. I would like to remind you that the police accounts of interrogations are not the only accounts, and that participants in interrogations on both sides often elaborate on what transpired afterward. You not liking a statement doesn't make it false, and it certainly doesn't make an unquestionably reliable source into an unreliable source based on your opinions and misunderstandings.LedRush (talk) 11:48, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

• I agree with User:FormerIP, User:DreamGuy, and User:LedRush. Rolling Stone is a reliable source, obviously, and this article meets every criteria under WP:RS, specifically WP:NEWSORG. The article does not appear to be a fictionalized account, but rather Knox's recounting of the interrogation. Knox was in the room at the time, so her account of the interrogation/interview should not be branded as "fiction." Also agree with Borean, that "It seems highly likely that the author imagined it" appears to be WP:OR. ColorOfSuffering (talk) 21:45, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

Reviewing the article George J. Borjas, it appears that some of the article is sourced to his 2005 curriculum vitae: 4. Are CVs appropriate sources in general, and BLPs in particular? Are there any specific guidelines on what they can be used for? aprock (talk) 20:45, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

CVs are not suitable for use for establishing notability. They are, however, useful as references as they may provide useful disambiguation information (to distinguish between multiple people with the same or similar names) and personal information (ethnicity, religion, etc). Stuartyeates (talk) 21:14, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Agree w/Stuart, as a general matter. Though, for certain claims, we would want something other than a CV. We treat them as a primary source (to be used with care), and the same way we would use a personal blog from a notable person.--Epeefleche (talk) 21:27, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

A note about CV's, they can sometimes be a little embellished. You can also have cases where the person updates them constantly. For instance, my brother did research work for this odd woman who had a 72-page CV. Though I guess that is something we like if we are looking for more info. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 27 Elul 5771 21:42, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Just as a small aside, an academic's CV can run into many pages because all classes taught, research projects, consultancies, conference papers, journal papers and other publications are listed. The CV on the university website is the best one to go with because it is most likely to be accurate, although it is actually supposed to be embellished. Itsmejudith (talk) 10:38, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

• Yes they are reliable sources on education and job history, publications and personal info such as date of birth. However we need to be sure that the CV is in fact made by the person it claims to be made from so they should come from a an official website for that person. That can be a job or a site that is clearly affiliated with him/her. As a rule you don't find CV's for dead people.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 22:49, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

Is a book describing and quoting school textbooks a reliable source regarding history?

The book:Schissler, Hanna; Soysal, Yasemin Nuhoğlu (2005). Berghahn Series. The nation, Europe, and the world: textbooks and curricula in transition. Berghahn Books. p. 55. ISBN 157181549X claims (allegedly) that something (probably transfer of Germans) was the "largest population transfer in history". It's probably a quotation from a German textbook so the statement informs about German nationalistic indoctrination rather than compares population transfers in human history. Population transfers in China were several times bigger than in Europe. Xx236 (talk) 13:44, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

Sounds like an over-generalization that text books are notorious for or the general ignorance of the author on the issue. The Resident Anthropologist (talk)•(contribs) 17:36, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

If a textbook claims that the editing nation is the best I become cautious. European textbooks used to be and many still are nationalistic or ethnocentric or West-centric. France and Germany did fantastic work rewriting textbooks after WWII, Poland and Germant too, but there is no symetry - Poland implements the agreements, German lands are authonomic. When a German textbook claims that Germany was the main victim in history - I don't believe the story. Xx236 (talk) 19:55, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

Imho you will however be hard pressed to find a (proper) German textbook claiming such thing. Afaik even older textbooks (50s, 60s) usually dealt with "unpleasant" topics by ommission rather than making dubious claims. --Kmhkmh (talk) 01:21, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

But I have found the statement about the "largest population transfer in history". I'm not able to check the original context, I doubt any library in Poland has the discussed book and the quoted textbook. It's part of rewriting history. Hahn and Hahn quote this Wikipedia article as a prove of the rewriting. Xx236 (talk) 07:08, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Well but what is the exact textbook? All i understood so far there might be some textbook that might claim.--Kmhkmh (talk) 17:10, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

What's the article concerned, and the statement it would support? Itsmejudith (talk) 17:49, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

Flight and expulsion of Germans (1944–1950) and the statement is that the expulsion of Germans were the biggest. There are different opinions regarding details - the biggest ever, in modern history, in Europe, in the 20 century, the biggest ethnic.Xx236 (talk) 19:44, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

In general (high)school textbooks may be (temporary) acceptable sources, but they are often not a good source and almost never an optimal source. All content that is covered in such school books, is covered in academic (university level) literature as well and the latter is the source that ultimately should be used.

Potential pitfalls with highschool books, that might render them unusable as a source in individual cases, have been mentioned in the postings further up already. In many countries or cases they can have a strong national or religious bias and are often politicized (see school book battles in the US over evolution, religion, race for instance). In addition even school books not subject to those problems may contain oversimplifications for didactical/pedagogical reasons, which are not appropriate for an encyclopedia such as WP.--Kmhkmh (talk) 01:14, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

I don't know the overall answer to this, but one thing to consider is the issue of trying to contradict the claim by comparisons that may or may not be appropriate. On the talkpage or the article, the OP talks about population transfer in China at a certain time being greater. Assuming that is true, though, the question is might raise is how a "population transfer" is normally defined. The Chinese and German cases appear to be different in that the first consists of transfer within a country whereas the second is a case of transfer between countries. Is there a standard way that the phrase "population transfer" should be used? --FormerIP (talk) 01:27, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

The problem with the "Expulsion" is that the Expulsion isn't defined and the documentation by Schieder was politically motivated, it wasn't an academic work. Read texts by Hahn and Hahn aboout Mythos Vertreibung. Germany created a myth and still supports it. The numbers of deported and dead persons are undefined, the place is described as "The East", even if Germans came also from the West and any other direction. BTW - there weren't exactly countries in 1945 but occupation zones. Germans themselves claim that lands obtained by Poland in 1945 were only provisionally administered, so big transfers took place inside Germany.Xx236 (talk) 07:08, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Per arguments above, especially Kmhkmh's point about oversimplification in school textbooks, avoid this book for this article. Itsmejudith (talk) 16:40, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

The book is available: http://books.google.pl/books?id=B72a3gJIn20C&pg=PA58&lpg=PA58&dq=Fink,+Hans-Georg+(1997).+Geschichte+kennen+und+verstehen&source=bl&ots=iqu4jVXrDz&sig=IK-WtIAUO4koEHSJzsc8Bwl4SRo&hl=pl&ei=jzOETr_NMcit8gPDj51Q&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&sqi=2&ved=0CDYQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=largest&f=false

As far as I understand, the texbook statement "the largest" describes population transfers in Europe, not only the ones regarding Germans. So the Wikipedia editor misquoted and I'm removing the quote.Xx236 (talk) 09:17, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

In this edit, I removed from the article Azerbaijani American -- on the basis of WP:CRYSTAL -- a paragraph speculating about what the new U.S. Census results will show about the number of Azerbaijani-Americans,. While the paragraph was heavily referenced, with general studies about ethnic undercounting and media reports of numbers fed by pro-Azerbaijani sources, none of the sources provided could, in my view, be considered reliable on the specific subject of what the Census will show about the number of Azerbaijani-Americans. All that was presented was speculation on what the Census would show, or, more precisely, what the editor who added the material (User:Saygi1) hoped the study would show -- a precipitous rise in the number of Azerbaijani-Americans.

In any event, my understanding of WP:CRYSTAL is that we should not be presenting speculation as information -- the Census will be released, and it will say what it says, and that information can then be added to the article.

I'd appreciate it if someone could look at my edit to see if I'm off base here. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:18, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

User:Saygi1 notified. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:20, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Discussion here and here. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:28, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Think you were correct with the removal. There's no way that wasn't synth. If there has been significant media coverage of the specific hot topic of how many Azerbaijani-Americans will show up in the census, that should be brought to the table and the content restored. --FormerIP (talk) 00:30, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

BMK, removing a large paragraph with some 18 (!) reliable and verifiable sources cruicial to the article about an ethno-national group of people in U.S., by citing an exaggerated concern of "a paragraph speculating" is an overkill, don't you think? You've done it 3 times: 5, 6, and 7.

• For starters, you can simply re-phrase any sentence you feel "speculated", instead of just reverting.
• Secondly, there is no attempt to predict what the Census will say - all the article said is: "The 2010 U.S. Census results, to be released by the end of 2011, are expected to reflect a more current official estimate on the number of Azerbaijanis in the U.S." How's that a "prediction"? Naturally, a 2010 Census would give figures up till 2010 - more current than 2000 figures. How's that an "attempt to predict"? Although, Census results can only show an increase as is clear from the cited facts, such as annual statistics of naturalizations between 2000 and 2010 (the years of Census) and the fact of natural growth (more births over deaths) typicaly for this community. However, since it can border on WP:OR, it can be re-phrased, and I will do so to alleviate any possible concerns. Again, you could have simply re-phrased just one sentence to make a good-faith edit instead of removing a huge block of sourced material like you did.
• Thirdly, there are virtually no "pro-Azerbaijani sources" cited - some 95% of sources are American newspapers, news sources and other U.S. government, media and NGO sources. Only one source is from an Azerbaijani source - an article by Dr. Paul Goble, an American citizen, ex-CIA analyst and RFE/RL high ranking executive, that was published by the Azerbaijan Diplomatic Academy.
• Yet even if there would have been many Azerbaijani sources - that's OK, too, as the article is about Azerbaijani-Americans, and naturally, Azerbaijanis would research or comment on that topic most. Sounds quite logical, don't you think? I think it's natural that Italian Coppolla makes films about Italian culture, Jewish Spielberg about Jews, Scottish Gibson about Scotts, Nobel-prize winning Turkish author Pamuk writing about Turks, Russian authors writing about Russians, Arab-American Dr. Zogby famous for his research on Arab-American community, etc. As I've shown, Asian-Americans testify in the US Senate about census undercount of their community, Latino's about undercount of their community - and they are all reliable sources.
• If by "pro-Azerbaijani sources" you mean the fact that Azerbaijani-Americans were interviewed or published by the U.S. newspapers and sources - so? Is that prohibited? Who else should give interviews, or know more about their own community - the people themselves, or someone else? How's a statement from John Doe about Azerbaijani-Americans any more reliable than a statement from a Azer (a typical Azerbaijani name) about Irish-Americans or a statement from Hans (a Germanic name) about African-Americans, or Jose (Hispanic name) about Chinese-Americans?
• Fourth, the claim "general sources about undercounting in the census, with no mention of application to Azerbaijanis" and that being "non-reliable cites" is really a wild overstretch. All these sources clearly state that Census undercount affects primarily minorities (as well as poor, which many immigrant minorities are in the their first 10 years of life, before earning more income than average citizens, and children, which affects everyone). None of the census undercount studies need to cite all the ethnic groups ("minorities") by name in order to be valid sources for citing in Wikipedia. It's enough that they all concur that minorities, especially immigrant minorities, are particularly affected by this, and then proceed to cite several cases, such as undercount of Brooklyn, NY residents (where a large number of Azerbaijani-Americans lives), or undercount of Iranian-American community (which is very close to the Azerbaijani-American community as is proven by multiple sources).
• Fifth, per your previous complaint 8, you don't know what "Boro Prez" does or signs. If you visit all their websites or call them, you will find out that 1) they don't always issue such documents, and can refuse, and do refuse all the time; 2) they do their own research and verification. But more importantly, they, being a government source, are a reliable and verifiable source. And we have not one, but three (3) such government proclamations. It's just as reliable as a census, for example, since we already have shown that census routinely undercounts, and then shown the State Department and the White House ignore the US Census figures and cite much larger figures for the, for example, Iranian-American community (e.g., if the 2000 census reports smth like 338,000 Iranian-Americans, then White House and State Department say there are 2 million Iranian-Americans).
• Sixth, I re-phrased some of the sentences in the new version, along with restoring the paragraph with 18 valuable, reliable and verifiable sources that BMK blanked out 9. Also, per the Census undercount discussion, note that I added 3 new US Census Bureau studies on the undercount as well as one study of the effect of undercount on the US Congress and one testimony in the US Senate about the Census 2010.
• Seventh, you did not remove (blanked out) the paragraph with heavily sourced info per WP:CRYSTAL as you try to claim again, as there are no speculations there, and you could have easily discussed it with specifics on the Talk page and then re-worded it. You removed it per WP:REVENGE, pure and simple. You removed, once again, a lot of sourced information that several other editors and admins have not removed over the past month - and they can read and think, too. So please, stop such disruptive editing, especially since you admit on your own talk page that "the topic area is so far afield from my natural haunting grounds", i.e,. a WP:LACK. Add to that WP:BATHWATER and WP:RUSH although they are about deleting the whole article, and in this case, half of the article. --Saygi1 (talk) 00:34, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Saygi1, TLDR in general. "are expected" indicates to me that we don't yet know what the census reports will be, and thus CRYSTAL seems to apply. Also, please refrain from characterizing editor conduct here, it's not helpful. --Nuujinn (talk) 00:41, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Please see the last version that BMK reverted, there was no such wording 10. There was smth to that effect in an older version of the article 11, which literally said smth different than what BMK alleges: "The 2010 U.S. Census results, to be released by the end of 2011, are expected to reflect a more current official estimate on the number of Azerbaijanis in the U.S." 12. (BMK claimed above this: "paragraph speculating about what the new U.S. Census results will show about the number of Azerbaijani-Americans") As you can see, there is no prediction of Census results of Azerbaijani-Americans even in the older version of the page, before it was re-written, but simply informing the viewer that there was a recent Census and its results will be available soon. What kind of results, it does not say and does not speculate. Yet it was still reverted by BMK, improperly citing CRYSTAL. Even if there would have been a speculation over the number of people, that's not a license to blank the page and remove 18 sources along. There is no CRYSTAL violation here. He could have simply removed one word or re-phrased one sentence. But he preferred to revert the page 3 times in one day, despite my repeated pleas on his talk page and the talk page of the article itself. --Saygi1 (talk) 01:04, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Let's see, looking at this version:

• The 2010 U.S. Census results, to be released by the end of 2011, are expected to reflect a more current official estimate on the number of Azerbaijanis in the U.S. But ethnic communities in the U.S. are still grossly underestimated by censuses mostly due to poor participation, assimilation or misclassification. Azerbaijani-Americans are not an exception in this regard, as both unofficial and semi-official estimates show that there are more Azerbaijanis living in the United States than claimed in the 2000 Census. The sources, http://www.civilrights.org/census/education-kit/reasons-behind.html, http://www.scpr.org/news/2010/12/31/22261/state-officials-say-census-undercounts-california-/, and http://www.ny1.com/content/top_stories/140831/making-census-of-it--brooklyn-officials-claim-2010-census-undercounted-borough, do not mention Azerbaijanis at all. Linking the three statements is WP:SNYTH, as the sources do not directly support the first and third statements. At most, you could use those sources to make general statements to the effect that some group believe that the census numbers will turn out to be inaccurate, and that does strike me as fitting CRYSTAL in this context, since a conclusion is being drawn about a particular group not mentioned in the sources.
• http://www.azeris.org/images/proclamations/May28_BrooklynNY_2011.JPG, http://www.azeris.org/images/proclamations/May28_Missouri_LtGov_2008.pdf, http://2010.census.gov/partners/partners/current-partners.php?A, http://2010.census.gov/partners/partners/current-partners.php?U, http://www.fuquay-varinaindependent.com/pages/full_story/push?article-Muslims+celebrate+national+holiday%20&id=7470429&instance=news_special_coverage_right_column, http://www.stlamerican.com/reader_interaction/letters_to_the_editor/article_a906f9d6-4a8f-11e0-9d87-001cc4c03286.html, http://onlineathens.com/stories/050409/let_436059460.shtml: none of these are reliable.
• http://www.eurasianet.org/departments/insightb/articles/eav050809c.shtml may be reliable, but they attribute the figure of 400K to USAN, which is not, I think reliable. Likewise http://www.irex.org/system/files/Baghirova_VOA.pdf attributes a figure of 200K-500K to Elin Suleymanov, the consul general for Azerbaijan. I'm not sure he's reliable on this topic. http://www.dailybruin.com/index.php/article/2006/10/iazerbaijan-deserves-us-public attributes a 400K figure to Javid Huseynov, a doctorate student at UC Irvine. School newspapers are not generally considered very reliable sources, and in this case the person to which the statement is attributed does not appear to be an expert. http://www.news.az/articles/5620 appears to be a press release from the AAC and lists 400K as an "unofficial figure", which does not lead me to think it is reliable, either.
• http://books.google.com/books?id=DHCVPqlsmvgC&pg=PA74#v=onepage&q&f=false may be reliable, but looks weak--Facts on File is a publishing group oriented towards public libraries and schools, and the source seems to be of textbook quality. No footnotes or bibliography.

Throwing lots of weak or non-reliable sources doesn't help in terms of referencing. I haven't looked at all of the sources, but what disturbs me is that no source presented attributes a number backed up other than by a raw assertion by some individual or group. Where are these number actually coming from? Is there a study, a survey? Or it is just the case that numbers were plucked from thin air and shopped around? --Nuujinn (talk) 10:45, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Nuujinn,

• the source from Margaret Kaeter has bibliography, you just cannot see them in Google Books preview. And can you please provide more detail on your judgment whether it is a textbook or research work?
• The proclamations from various U.S. government offices are also reliable, as they are issued based on scrutinized review of information. What is concerning is that some of the users disputing at Talk:Azerbaijani American are actually claiming that the claim to unofficial figure of 400,000 is made by lobbyists or Azerbaijani government agents, which neither Missouri Lt Governor nor Brooklyn Borough President are.
• The U.S. Census links listing organization as Census partner are meant to assert exactly that listed fact, that both USAN and AAC were Census partners. What is not reliable about that?
• The figure provided by AAC officer in UCLA Daily Bruin is meant to reflect, again, an unofficial estimate, already confirmed by several other sources listed. How is it not reliable when other sources, unrelated to AAC or Daily Bruin, say the same thing? Atabəy (talk) 14:27, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Atabəy:

• Kaeter's work has a table of contents, and that is visible, and does not list a bibliography. There are no footnotes that I can see, and I base my judgement on the publisher's web site, see http://www.infobasepublishing.com/AboutUs.aspx. The book is part of a 15 volume set. This is not a high quality work published by an academic press.
• Why do you say that proclamations are "based on scrutinized review of information"? That is generally not the case with such proclamations, which are pretty much just "feel good" documents. In any case, Lt. Governors and Borough Presidents are mid level politicians, not experts in census data or demographics.
• I do not doubt that USAN and AAC were census partners, but that fact is not a source for the numbers being bandied about, and that fact does not make the USAN and AAC experts census data or demographics.
• No source seems to actually confirm a number, they seem rather to simply repeat it, and that makes me nervous. If a source referred to where that number came from, how that number was arrived at, it would be a much different matter. If there were a study or survey done by researchers that was referenced, it would be a different matter.

I hope that all makes sense. I think we could put a statement in that there is are unofficial estimates, but we should attribute the sources and be very careful about how to do that. But these really are weak sources, so we'd have to be very careful about attribution. --Nuujinn (talk) 22:44, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Since editors continue to restore the speculative material to the article despite the consensus of uninvolved editors, I have brought this issue to WP:AN/I, here. Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:15, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Nuujinn, you've used the wrong version of my edited article, I've specifically warned against that and said to use the last version I edited, where I re-phrased some of the sentences and notified the admins about it 13. Your exclusion of a bunch of sources, like the US Census Bureau, three US state government proclamations, opinion of a Consul General, and multiple newspapers from all across the country as "unreliable" is of course hard to even consider. There was no speculation about Census 2010 (Beyond My Ken's original complaint), and the 400,000 was clearly indicated as an estimate. Like with other minority communities, there are always estimates, and they deserve to be reported if they represent the majority of opinion and thus pass Wikipedia's requirements. All of the sources and the paragraph in question comply with WP:VERIFY and WP:CITE among other. It is more reliable than similar articles like Iranian American and Armenian American - would you care to analyze them as well, and compare to Azerbaijani American? --Saygi1 (talk) 23:51, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

I have looked at the demographic coverage in Iranian American and find nothing there to complain about: citations from CNN (quoting the 2000 Census and independent surveys), the Wall Street Journal and NPR all seem reliable and support the statements made. The only statement about Iranian organizations in relation to the Census says that they are banding together to educated Iranian-Americans about the Census. There is no synthesis and no attempt to predict what future numbers will be. It's all straightforward use of citations to support straightforward statements.

I haven't looked at Armenian American, the article more difficult to parse. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:11, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

BMK, you are not exactly a neutral editor here. Secondly, it is funny and shows once more the double standard you exercise. Because it was me who edited the Iranian American article and placed information you are citing, including the US Census undercount, which you don't seem to mind there (which is based/referred to the information from an Iranian NGO), and several references to Iranian (not American, but Iranian) newspapers, such as Payvand, and others. Also, a dispute tag was removed without much hesitation and explanation, and no one seems to object to that. --Saygi1 (talk) 00:47, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

In that case your edits fell within policy, in this case they did not, so in that case I have no objection, and in this case I removed them. Why is that so difficult for you to understand? Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:29, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

I took a look at 14, and pretty much everything I said above applies to that version as well. Do you have any notion what the figure is based on? Also, please be careful how you state things--a proclamation from the President of the Borough of Brooklyn is not in any way a US State Government proclamation, as the Borough is more a city level entity. And I am in no way excluding the US Census Bureau, as their figures are definitely reliable. Some of the sources could be used, but carefully, with attribution. My suggestion would be to look for just 2-3 of the best sources you can find and suggest a conservative edit, rather than throwing a mass of poor and unreliable source up and linking sources not directly related to the subject (thereby violating SYNTH). --Nuujinn (talk) 00:37, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

By three US state government proclamations I did refer, among others, to the Brooklyn proclamation - it is a city in the state of New York and is fully under/within/part of that state, and can't declare independence/secede (unlike a US state that can declare independence from the union, from USA, and thus be outside of federal government's reach). But let's call it "local government" if it's better - doesn't change much, as it's still a (local) government source, still authoritative, still reliable, still verifiable. Meanwhile, the last version of the article I pointed to your attention does not have the lines that BMK complained about, and does not speculate. More importantly, it would have been simply re-phrased by him, but he chose to blank it out and remove 18 sources. Also, those sources are all cited appropriately and are verifiable. The article is about an ethnic group, relatively new one, not about some complex topics like nuclear engineering or rocket science. The fact that 95% of sources are U.S. sources only adds to credibility. Of course being about Azerbaijani-Americans it would rely often on various Azerbaijanis about it. The 400,000 is available in Google Books source as another user showed. That along with 3 (local or state) government sources and others (such as statement from a Consul General, whose job is to know such things, as they have to deal with visas, passports, and other demographic questions all the time) and organizations like AAC and USAN that were specifically chosen by the US Census Bureau for the Census 2010 partnership, makes that estimate more than worthy of inclusion. Especially when you compare and look at the Iranian American page, and check the MIT Iranian Student Group survey (a poll or survey done by Iranian-Americans at MIT - that's a scholarly source), that at least 11% of Americans from Iran are actually ethnically Azerbaijani.15 Since the U.S. Government (White House and State Department) say there are 2 million people from Iran, that's some 240,000 Azerbaijani-Americans just from Iran alone. Doesn't include Azerbaijanis who came from Azerbaijan, Russia, Turkey, Georgia, Armenia, etc. So as you can see, there is plenty of evidence, direct and indirect. But more importantly - these sources and that paragraph specifically should not have been removed/blanked out by Beyond My Ken without explanation. --Saygi1 (talk) 00:47, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

The Consul General, local government officials, state officials, members of congress, supreme court justices, and even the President would not be experts in census data and demographics, and thus not really reliable sources. I think your assertion about AAC and USAN being partners and thus reliable sources for these estimates would have to be supported by sources--if you read http://2010.census.gov/partners/, you see that census partners help ensure participation in the census, and are not sources of data themselves, and from what I've read, the census program encourages all interested groups to participate in the partnership program, so partnership in the census says nothing about an organizations's ability to accurately assess or generate population figures. I'm simply not concerned or interested in the Iranian American, as what is there is not relevant to this discussion. Pulling data from various sources and drawing your own conclusions is OR, and we cannot use the results from that OR in articles, plain and simple.

The most I think you can do with the some of the sources you have presented is to say that specific groups or individuals have themselves made the claim that the number is X, Y, or Z, depending on the specific group or individual. Finally, I would point out that this venue is not appropriate for discussion of editor conduct, and you should take those concerns elsewhere. --Nuujinn (talk) 00:29, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

For the sake of accuracy, Saygi1's statements above about Brooklyn etc. are incorrect. Brooklyn was an independent city up until the turn of the 20th century, when it merged with New York City (Manhattan) and other jurisdictions to become "Greater" New York City. Now, Brooklyn is one of 5 boroughs of New York City, each of which is coextensive with a county. (That is, NYC is not within a single county as most American cities are, but has within it 5 county-level entities.) Brooklyn is Kings County, but there is no "Kings County" govermental structure, it is all handled by the Borough President. Thus, the Borough President of Brooklyn is equivalent to the County Executive of other U.S. Counties, but somewhat less so, since many of his dutues are ceremonial, all the real power residing in the Mayor of New York and the City Council.

Next, neither counties, cities, nor states can secede at will from the higher-level entity above them -- the American Civil War was fought over just that issue on the state/Federal level. The victory of the North established that secession of states from the Federal union is not allowed. So there's no way that a state can "be outside of federal government's reach". Lower down the hierarchy, there has been, over the years, popular support for New York City (and perhaps the surrounding counties) to secede from New York and become the 51st state, but to do that there woul have to be (1) a vote in the seceding counties, (2) a vote to allow the secession in the New York State Legislature, approved by the Governor of the state and (3) A vote in Congress or votes in 3/5s of the American states to accept the new state. For these reasons, it's never going to happen -- for one the state legislature will not approve it.

This has nothing to do with the current issues, of course -- except for the fact that the Brooklyn Borough President is neither a high official, nor an expert in American ethnic demographics -- I just hate to see such blatant mistatements of fact be bandied about. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:03, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

If a publisher provides profiles of its authors, are those reliable sources? Are they considered independent of the author? The relevant example is William Lane Craig and the participant profile provided by Closer to Truth. Huon (talk) 04:17, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

The correct publisher is Closer to Truth, not Closer to the Truth. Maiorem (talk) 05:44, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Correct, thanks. I've updated the link above to avoid confusion. Huon (talk) 09:53, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

No, especially not for a BLP, since the publisher is not independent of the author. --Nuujinn (talk) 10:03, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

On what basis do you claim that the publisher is not independent of the author, especially in regards to author profiles? Even in terms of primary sources, shouldn't their reliability be determined by the context of their statements rather than simply by their being primary sources, per WP:PRIMARY? Maiorem (talk) 12:31, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

This wouldn't be a RS for a BLP, but ordinarily the subject's blog would be a RS for info about himself. Brmull (talk) 10:28, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

I think that standard BLP criteria apply, in particular the self-sourcing standards that

it is not unduly self-serving; it does not involve claims about third parties; it does not involve claims about events not directly related to the subject; there is no reasonable doubt as to its authenticity; the article is not based primarily on such sources.

Applying those standards carefully, I think the profile is far from an ideal source for the material it is cited for, although it is better than similar citations to the subject's own books, which appear to be OR/synthesis from primary sources. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 23:20, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

First of all, please explain how Closer to Truth is considered "self-sourcing". Do not just say "This wouldn't be a RS" or "I think the profile is far from an ideal source" but explain in what way is it lacking as a reliable source. In addition, citations from the subject's own books are not OR/synthesis from primary sources. Please take a look at WP:OR to understand what is OR/synthesis:

The term "original research" (OR) is used on Wikipedia to refer to material—such as facts, allegations, and ideas—for which no reliable, published source exists. This includes any analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to advance a position not advanced by the sources.

In this regard, there is no OR/synthesis when citing from the subject's own books. Please do not make baseless allegations concerning the sources or the citation of sources. Maiorem (talk) 03:33, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

To me it seems possible to sometimes use such author notes, but it is not ideal. I think that it makes sense to treat it like information on an author's webpage (indeed author's webpages are often based on the same types of texts that appear on their books) and indeed the main thing to be careful of then is to avoid anything un-duly self-serving or promotional. It seems better than nothing.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 10:02, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

Is the interview at http://www.womensmafia.com/2011/06/talent-qa-davina-reichman/ a reliable source for Davina Reichman, who is being interviewed there? Dream Focus 08:41, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

Looks like a fairly simple website outfit, with two people named, one of whom conducts that interview. They also do not explain their editorial techniques which makes it important to try to find out whether any other sources cite them as if they have a reputation for accuracy. So does not look good for controversial stuff at first sight, but this particular interview looks like one that the living person involved has attended voluntarily, which means we can perhaps use that interview like we would use that person's personal webpage: i.e. ok for anything which is not obvious self-promotion. As in all such cases of people in their own words, bu on the internet, the main concern apart from self-promotion would be whether there is any chance that it is fraudulent, and not really involving the individual we want to write about. It does not seem likely in this case.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 09:48, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

If I wanted to state that Michael H. Jordan had been a Director of Young & Rubicam, Inc., would BusinessWeek's Executive Profile and Biography of Michael H. Jordan be a reliable source? (Be sure to click the "Read Full Background" link to disclose the hidden text.) Thanks 199.46.245.237 (talk) 22:20, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

BusinessWeek is WP:RS and so, absent conflicting information, this material is also RS. Cheers. Collect (talk) 23:06, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

The concern is represented by the footnote: "*Data is at least as current as the most recent Definitive Proxy", as there is no Definitive Proxy for private companies, such as one currently under discussion, BlackLight Power. The concern is whether the BW summary is based on more than just BlackLight's website. Given that there is another published source (NYTimes) indicating that he's no longer among the living, the odds of him serving on Y&R, BLP or any other boards seem pretty slim. Accordingly, I must conclude that BW is not a RS for such details. LeadSongDog come howl! 03:48, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

Participants in the Spirit Level mediation would like an opinion from RSN on the inclusion of a citation about a debate concerning the book The Spirit Level: Why More Equal Societies Almost Always Do Better held by the Royal Society of Arts (RSA). Participants in the mediation have been unable to agree on whether or not to include a citation about this debate. A third opinion was requested, but two of the three participants disagree with the 3O. As mediator, I consider that a ruling from RSN would be helpful in resolving the dispute.

1. The source in question, including link: Royal Society of Arts (22 Jul 2010) RSA Debates the Spirit Level.
2. The article in which it is being used: The Spirit Level: Why More Equal Societies Almost Always Do Better
3. The exact statement in the article that the source is supporting:

In July 2010, a debate hosted by the RSA (Royal Society for the encouragement of Arts, Manufactures and Commerce), took place between Christopher Snowdon, Peter Saunders, Richard Wilkinson and Kate Pickett, and was subsequently uploaded to the internet.

4. Links to relevant talk page discussion:

• Information about the debate was added to the article on 30 June 2011 16
• There has been considerable discussion about adding a link to the RSA debate on the article talk page 17
• A third opinion was requested and provided on 26 June 2011 18
• The mediation began on 7 September 2011 19
• The objection to the third opinion, that neither WP:Notability nor multiple sources are relevant to this addition, was summarized by one of the participants 20
• The counter argument, that there is no reliable third party source to establish notability (WP:V#notability) is summarized by another participant 21

All three participants in the mediation have signed their agreement with the above request to RSN and will take a considered opinion from RSN seriously. 22 We ask that any reference by RSN to "notability" be supported by directly citing the relevant wording in policy. Thank you very much for your consideration. Sunray (talk) 17:24, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for filling out the template properly, but it doesn't appear as if anyone is questioning the reliability of this source. Instead, the debate seems to be centered on:

1. Weight - whether the content belongs in the article. Are secondary sources required to establish weight?
2. Value - Does this content actually provide the reader with any useful information?

Both issues are debatable and I don't think there are any easy answers. First, let me clarify one point: WP:WEIGHT and WP:NOTABILITY are two different policies. Editors frequently confuse the two. In fact, it happens so often, I usually just ignore it and focus on the substance of what an editor is trying to say. But since it seems to be a point of contention in the debate and editors are quoting from policy verbatim, I'll spell out the difference:

1. WP:NOTABILITY applies to an article's existence. Should an article be deleted or not?
2. WP:WEIGHT applies to content inside an article. The article exists, but does this content belong in it?

So, to address the issue of weight, the central question is whether secondary sources are required to establish weight. Some editors insist that primary sources also be covered by secondary sources to establish weight. Some don't. In my own editing, when an editor wants a secondary source, I try to honor that request. Unfortunately, the wording of WP:WEIGHT doesn't specifically state "secondary" but I think that meets the spirit of what that policy is trying to say. (Just so this isn't taken out of context, that doesn't mean primary sources should never be used. I can and do cite primary sources, but for non-contentious content.)

The second issue is about value. Does the reader gain any useful information from this content? I'm sympathetic to the argument made by Sunray that simply saying "The RSA held a debate" doesn't really tell the reader anything informative. Somedifferentstuff does a nice job explaining why they think the content is important, and if the content actually contained this analysis, it might be a different story. But it doesn't. In order to include this analysis, we would need a secondary source to do it for us. That said, I don't think that it doesn't necessarily hurt the article to keep it. It's not as if the article is too long and content needs to be trimmed. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 19:13, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, A Quest For Knowledge, for your thoughtful response. I appreciated your mention of WP:WEIGHT as the definitive policy in determining whether content should, or should not, be included in articles. When the others have had a look at your response, there may be some follow-up questions. Would you be willing to entertain such? Sunray (talk) 05:52, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

Cross posted from RfM the Spirit Level (book) Would User:A Quest For Knowledge or another contributor like to comment further on whether the source is primary or secondary a) in general for this article, b) for the proposed sentence?

Can they say any more about the implication of WP:WEIGHT? My interpretation is that since WP:WEIGHT is a section in WP:NPOV, and since its purpose is to ensure that small-minority views aren't unduly represented in articles, and since it is certain that RSA doesn't represent a small-minority view, then we do not have to worry about violating WP:WEIGHT. Do they agree with that? (If they don't have any more to add, and if we don't have consensus in this mediation, we might take that to the NPOV noticeboard.)

Is this summary by the RSA reliable as a summary of how the book was received?

Much broader, and they may not have much to say without more detail, are they able to comment on whether, in principle, statements made by participants in the debate are reliable sources for the views of the book's authors or critics? Itsmejudith (talk) 08:01, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for responding. I want to discuss Value, which there is no applicable WP policy on. My assumption is that this is probably intentional. When you look at the article as a whole, you see this:

Peter Saunders, Professor Emeritus of Sociology at Sussex University, published a report for the think tank Policy Exchange questioning the statistics in The Spirit Level. He claimed that only one of the correlations in the book—that between infant mortality and income inequality—stood up to scrutiny, and that the rest were either false or ambiguous.24 Wilkinson and Pickett published a response defending each of the claims in the book and accusing Saunders in turn of flawed methodology.7

Christopher Snowdon, an independent researcher and adjunct scholar at the Democracy Institute,2526 published a book largely devoted to a critique of The Spirit Level, entitled, The Spirit Level Delusion: Fact-checking the Left's New Theory of Everything.27 One of its central claims is that Wilkinson excludes certain countries from his data without justification, such as South Korea and the Czech Republic. It also argues that Wilkinson and Pickett falsely claim the existence of a scientific consensus when much of the literature disagrees with their findings. Wilkinson and Pickett released a response to questions from Snowdon28 and responded to similar criticisms in the Wall Street Journal.22 Snowdon has in turn responded to their criticisms on his blog.29

This establishes context for two of the people mentioned in the proposed addition. If someone reads the article, they'll see the two sections cited above, and then learn that a debate was held featuring these two guys along with both of the book's authors, in an event that was videotaped and subsequently uploaded to the internet. The question I have regarding this is: How does this content not provide useful information to the reader? Somedifferentstuff (talk) 14:33, 23 September 2011 (UTC) ("videotaped" would need to be added to the material.) Somedifferentstuff (talk) 18:27, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

And my question is: How does it provide useful information to the reader? What is the supposed useful information in this? What do they learn? You talk about context, what context?

I also interpreted WP:Weight as only concerning NPOV. To me it would make sense to interpret it so that secondary sources are needed about these kinds of statements that are in themselves neutral. --OpenFuture (talk) 05:02, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

Itsmejudith:

• It would be considered a primary source.
• Determining WP:WEIGHT is a judgement call and editors editing in good faith can reasonably disagree. There isn't necessarily a right answer or a wrong answer, but simply a disagreement of opinion.
• At one point, WP:NPOV said that WP:WEIGHT applied not just to points of view, but to other content as well. But I can't seem to find this part in WP:NPOV. I'm not sure if this change was intentional or not. (I don't recall having a discussion about this, but it's hard to keep up with all the different discussions on Wikipedia.)
• Although it might be an accurate summary, no, it's not a reliable source for how the book was received. We should use secondary sources which are independent of the topic.
• Yes, statements made by participants in the debate are reliable sources for the views of the book's authors or critics. But again, we should try to avoid too much reliance on primary sources and instead try to use secondary sources to make this determination.

Unfortunately, I'm not sure any of this is particularly helpful. Like I said, there are no easy answers and this is a judgement call. I think that the current article works both with and without this content. I think that somebody proposed that we simply have an external link to the debate. This seems like a very reasonable compromise. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 01:06, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

Thank you once again. This is helpful. I think we can resume the mediation discussion and hopefully wrap this up now. Sunray (talk) 07:05, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

Thanks! It's extremely helpful, as it supports what most external opinions has been saying all along. --OpenFuture (talk) 09:06, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

I'm personally not familiar with the news services of central and south America; therefore, I'd like to find out if El Nuevo Diario (from Nicaragua) and El Universal (Mexico City) (from Mexico) could be regarded as reliable. I'm trying to support a sales figure of a Mexican singer Luis Miguel at the List of best-selling music artists with these two articles, one by by El Nuevo Diario and the other by El Universal. I would appreciate it if someone with knowledge about those two news agencies could confirm their reliability.--Harout72 (talk) 01:41, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

• I don't see these newspapers as being problematic themselves (admittedly, I'm not familiar with them, but they don't look unreliable). However, these newspapers have the same problem with reporting career sales figures that many newspapers throughout the world do -- namely, it's likely that when they report the worldwide sales figures for an artist, they are probably relying on information supplied by the artist's management or record company, not on actual research by the newspaper. I would recommend following the same practice required at Talk:List of best-selling music artists for other artists -- namely, accept the sales figure reported by the newspapers (60 million) only if the artist has record certifications to support a sufficient percentage of the reported figure. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 20:33, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

In reviewing infoboxes for various economists, I came across a curious "opposed" field. This field ostensibly lists other academics to which the economist was in some way "opposed". However, the sourcing for this opposition is generally flimsy to non-existent. For example, the article Arthur Cecil Pigou lists him as being opposed to Lionel Robbins. However, that is the only mention of Robbins in the article. Looking at Lionel Robbins, there is no mention of Pigou at all, though it does list him as opposed to Marshallian Economics economics. Maybe this is a by product of the high degree of infighting in the field of economics, but all of these poorly source "opposed" fields somehow feel misplaced. Thoughts? aprock (talk) 05:27, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

Sounds like a dubious practice to me. I would say that if this box is filled in then it should be explained and sourced somewhere in the article. I would suggest tagging or trying to start talk page discussion on this basis.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 08:40, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

Well, it's not just this infobox, but a good dozen or so. I'll open discussions on talk pages. aprock (talk) 14:33, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia takes a long time to finish doesn't it? :) --Andrew Lancaster (talk) 20:35, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

Hello, I sent this article about a french mime to AfD because I've been unable to find sources independant from himself. Some advice would be appreciated over there. Thank you, Comte0 (talk) 15:08, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

What's the reliability quotient on this source? I'm in the middle of a big merge and this is the only source for some information in one of the pages. Serendi^podous 18:46, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

I don't see how that's a reliable source, but admittedly I also don't see why we would want to list all the occultation events in the first place. Anyway, the website looks like a self-published source, and for all I can tell, the author is a hobby astronomer, not an acknowledged expert. Huon (talk) 21:39, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

This link 23 from Zee News, a notable Indian channel says that Bodyguard is the second highest grossing Indian film. As per general agreement, the Indian film industry is divided into the Bollywood (North) and the Southern film industry (though there are many more) and the majority of the sources say that the top three highest grossing films are Enthiran ($60-90 million), 3 Idiots ($70 million) and Dasavathaaram ($55 million), out of which Enthiran and Dasavathaaram are south Indian films. Then Bodyguard, with a gross of $52 million must be naturally fourth. Zee News is credible, I agree, but no source is 100% perfect and this is a mistake they have made. It should state that "Bodyguard is the second highest grossing Bollywood film" and not the second highest grossing Indian film. I'll try contacting the site and ask them to change it, but for now this source is not reliable. I tried changing the sentence, but User:Scieberking doesn't seem to accept the statement. Accept with good faith, but please accept the facts and get it right. Secret of success ^{Talk to me} 12:12, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

I only said Zee News, by all means, is a reliable source. And of course I realize that there are several film industries in India, including Hindi, Tamil, Telugu etc. I've changed it to "Bollywood's second", instead of "India's second", which was not even my edit, addition or selection of words anyway. Just misleading and an unfortunate attempt. Scieberking (talk) 14:01, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

I don't know anything about Zee News's reliability but if you are skeptical you can either not include it at all in the article (provided no other editor wants it included) or you can include it but state that, "According to Zee News, Bodyguard is the second highest grossing Indian film." Finding another source would be great, even one that just says "the top grossing indian films are..." Also note that WP:V states, "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth". Personally, I'd include the statement but also state in the prose that Zee News said it. --Odie5533 (talk) 01:36, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

Zee News as per my view is a reliable source, but no idea about their info on film articles. Karthik Nadar (talk) 06:50, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

There has been some debate as to whether this source should be used in the Casualties section: 24. Some editors feel it is a published source by an expert, others say it is an unpublished PowerPoint slide presentation. Johnfos (talk) 18:16, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

That source appears to be a self-published slide presentation and is not reliable for factual information. --Odie5533 (talk) 15:40, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

I disagree. Per WP:SPS; "Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications." Peter F. Caracappa has been previously published in Health Physics and Physics in Medicine and Biology, both peer-reviewed journals. He has been quoted in the Wall Street Journal and the Christian Science Monitor. He seems to be an expert in the field, so I would not dismiss his "slide presentation" as immediately not-reliable. ColorOfSuffering (talk) 22:33, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

Do we have any supporting documentation regarding the meeting? Also, a pdf of a powerpoint presentation is not the same as the presentation itself, and much of this data seems raw. I would strongly suggest that this is really a primary source, and should be handled with caution. --Nuujinn (talk) 23:28, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

I just wanted to know if Richard Robert Madden author of a number of books the most notable being The United Irishmen, their lives and times (1843, 7 Vols.), which are listed in his bio, would be considered to be reliable source on the subject. Madden is the most cited author on most if not all books on the subject of the United Irishmen and 1798. I would suggest that unless Madden as a source is challanged, or contradicted by a contempory source it can be used. If however a source can be found which dose challenge Madden possibly both should be used, but that is only a suggestion. When Madden is supported by contempory sources, would it be advisable to use Madden or the contempory source, or can we use both? Thanks, --Domer48_'fenian' 16:05, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

In terms of pure general principle all the answers you provide to your own questions seem reasonable, but not necessarily always correct. But you do not give any specific examples. Is there a controversy somewhere about a citation of him? In general, modern secondary sources are preferred for subjects like this, but older more "primary" sources are often very handy to have also, as a good straightforward to source what people said and thought in their own words, and sometimes this is necessary. Older and more primary sources normally become more controversial if they are being used in order to make a judgement style of statement about historical events, as if it is clear that modern neutral researchers would agree. In many cases the controversy can be avoided by making the wording an attributed citation and not just something "in the voice of Wikipedia" for example instead of writing that "group X tended to be rich people" you could change to "according to a contemporary member of group Y, group X tended to be rich people".--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 09:56, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

Thanks Andrew for taking the time to have a look at this. It is my contention, based on the source, in this case Madden, that the origins of Irish Republicanism lay with Irish Volunteers (18th century). All I would like to establish at this point, is that first a)that this is the case, and b)Madden is an acceptable source for this. I will offer contemporary sources to supplement this view. But first Madden:

That the Irish Volunteers (18th century) did indeed contain republicans:"It is not inconsistent with truth, though it may be with the military glory of this institution of the Volunteers, to say that it combined in one great national phalanx the talent, the intolerance, the chivalry, the extravagance, the prodigality, the embarrassment, the republicanism, and patriotism, for one brief epoch, of all ranks and classes". The United Irishmen, their lives and times Vol. 1 first edition Page 147

Another quote in the same vain:"The republicans and the reformers had been united under the common name of Volunteers, without very distinctly perceiving that there was any difference in their designs and objects, until the progress of the French Revolution began to fill the Irish whigs with alarm; they seceded from the Volunteers ; many of them began to oppose the projects of reform which they had previously advocated, and once more the party to which the country I had looked for redress of legislative grievances was broken into hostile fragments." The United Irishmen, their lives and times Vol. 1 first edition Page 17

Now as to the origins of republicanism:"In 1793, an order from government to disperse every assemblage of that body by military force, gave the death-blow to the Volunteers: they made one faint effort in Antrim for their last review; the army was marched out of Belfast to prevent its taking place, and, in prudently giving up the review, the great body of the citizen-soldiers of Ireland gave up the ghost. But their principles were not then doomed to perish; they rose from the ashes of the Volunteers, and the course of reproduction was but a short transition from languor and hopelessness to activity and enthusiasm, and, with a perilous excess of energy in both, their principles became those of the United Irishmen in 1791." The United Irishmen, their lives and times Vol. 1 first edition Page 153

Again in the same vain:"The preceding pages were intended to show the vast influence over the mind of the nation and its rulers, which the Volunteer association at one period exerted; the failure of the only measure effected by it, namely, the independence of the Irish parliament, and the necessity for reform, more than ever felt at the time of its suppression. The society of the United Irishmen was formed with a view of accomplishing those objects which it had failed to carry into effect." The United Irishmen, their lives and times Vol. 1 first edition page160

Now the supplementary sources:"A paramilitary tradition in Irish politics was launched by the Volunteers of 1782 and that tradition, whether nationalist of unionist, loyalist or republican, has continued to shape and delimit the contours of Irish political activity. The force of argument had been trumped by the argument of force". Ireland: A History, Thomas Bartlett, Cambridge University Press, 2010, 9780521197205, page 190

And again:"If Irish nationalism dates from Strongbow, or even the Danes, Irish republicanism was an offspring of the Volunteers of 1782 and owes much to the external influences of the American and French revolutions." Fenians and Fenianism, Maurice Harmon, Scepter Publishers Limited, 1968, Page 65.

Now a contemporary or Madden: "This republican temper of a large portion of the Protestant population of Ireland was the germ, first, of a growing parliamentary opposition to the measures of the English Government, and ultimately of the Volunteer Association and the revolution of 1782". IRELAND IN '98, J. BOWLES DALY, 1888 Page 21

"The first Society of United Irishmen grew out of the ashes of the Volunteers and the disappointed hopes of the legislative revolution of 1782; the Volunteers grew out of the parliamentary and popular opposition to British government which had shown itself at intervals almost from the beginning of the century, and had gone on steadily widening and deepening from the accession of George III to the American war".

"The Republicans and Reformers joined under the common name of Volunteers without at first perceiving that their designs and objects were identical. The French Revolution filled the Whigs with alarm; they seceded from the Volunteers, some opposed the projects of reform, and in this way broke up the party. The Republican section in Ulster sought a reconciliation with the Catholics of the South, with the view of obtaining equal rights on equal terms with the Catholics". IRELAND IN '98, J. BOWLES DALY, 1888 Page 64

Another contemporary"After the publication of another philippic against Government, a meeting of the United Irish of Dublin was dismissed by the sheriff, as persons holding seditious and republican views. Thus, in 1794, terminated the legal existence of the last of the Volunteers of 1782; convened, under their new name, two years and a half previously." The Croppy: A Tale of the Irish Rebellion of l798, John Banim, James Duffy, 1865, Page. 5"

Based on the above, would it be consistent with the sources to say that Irish Republicanism had its origins with the Volunteers? The next issue I'd like to address is did the Irish Volunteers call themselves "volunteers"? That however is another issue. If you need additional information let me know and thanks again. --Domer48_'fenian' 20:01, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

After a quick perusal I would suggest using attribution for this type of historical commentary, such as "According to 19th century historians such as X, Y and Z, ....". If you do not use attribution you may end up with someone tagging you for using an old secondary source that MIGHT not still be something modern historians agree with. Ideally though, I would try to find a more recent source to add to what you have.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 08:44, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for having a look Andrew and offering your advice. I understand the use of attribution, having used it quite often, but in a case were there is no contradictory source is it still necessary? For example it is not disputed that "The origins of Irish Republicanism lay with the both the American and French revolutions. Morgan Llwelyn, Irish Rebels, O'Brien Press, 2001, pg 29, ISBN 0 86278 857 9 and Seán Cronin, Irish Nationalism: A History of its Roots and Ideology, The Continuum Publishing Company, 1980, pages = 1-2, ISBN 0 8264 0062 0. Again it is not disputed that the Volunteers were established in response to the American revolution, therefore is it consistent with the sources to say that Irish Republicanism has its origins in the Volunteers, and that these sources could and do indeed support such a suggestion:"A paramilitary tradition in Irish politics was launched by the Volunteers of 1782 and that tradition, whether nationalist of unionist, loyalist or republican, has continued to shape and delimit the contours of Irish political activity. The force of argument had been trumped by the argument of force". Ireland: A History, Thomas Bartlett, Cambridge University Press, 2010, 9780521197205, page 190. "If Irish nationalism dates from Strongbow, or even the Danes, Irish republicanism was an offspring of the Volunteers of 1782 and owes much to the external influences of the American and French revolutions." Fenians and Fenianism, Maurice Harmon, Scepter Publishers Limited, 1968, Page 65. If this is the case, I would like to address the issue surrounding the name used by members of the Irish Volunteers to describe themselves, namely 'volunteer.'? Thanks again for taking the time to work with me on this it is very much appreciated. --Domer48_'fenian' 09:14, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

There is nothing stopping you from not using attribution. It is partly just to avoid it drawing drive by tagging and the like. I have no idea how other editors knowledgeable in this field will feel about it and in the end consensus is the aim. If there are no contradictory sources, then you have either looked at modern sources, in which case I suggest naming a few, or else maybe they just haven't been looked at yet and maybe that can be a long term aim.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 15:51, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

Are these sources reliable?

http://www.microsoft.com/project/en/gb/find-partner.aspx?country=qatar

http://www.microsoft.com/industry/government/solutions/EnterpriseProjectManagement/default.aspx

http://www.techno-management.com/Partners.aspx

http://www.esri.com/apps/company/contact/index.cfm?fa=distributor.lookup&country=Egypt

http://www.pfizer.com/home/

http://www.gmegypt.com/content_data/LAAM/ME/en/GBPME/999/index.html

http://www.mof.gov.eg/english/Pages/Home.aspx unsigned comment left by User:Wessam Fawzy Comte0 (talk) 21:11, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

Reliable for what? --Nuujinn (talk) 23:21, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

One of the main sources I have used on the Katharine Hepburn article is her autobiography, now I'm worrying people will say this is not a reliable source...is its usage okay? I am primarily using it to reference details about her life, and I figured this is pretty much the most reliable source you can use seeing as she wrote it herself. But it seems people may view it as biased. I want to put the article forward for GA soon so I want to check up on this, would appreciate some input and advice (I'm not experienced with this place). --Lobo512 (talk) 14:50, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

I'd advise caution. For uncontroversial statements or for Hepburn's opinions, it can be used without problem. But secondary sources would always be preferable. Ater all, an autobiography is the best place to put a positive spin on your own life's events. The relevant policy is WP:PRIMARY. Huon (talk) 16:12, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

SELFPUB. Wifione ^Message 16:54, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

So autobios do count as a primary source? Okay I didn't realise that. I think that primary source page should mention it. I'll try and make sure I only use it for the things you said. --Lobo512 (talk) 17:36, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

It does. Wifione ^Message 17:39, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

Reliable references to souce material have now been added to the James Palumbo Wikipedia page...

How do we go about having the notice requesting reliable sources removed from the top of the page? Anon

The proper Wikipedia answer is, "be bold". If you are confident that the sources are appropriate and deal with the points of possible controversy, then remove the notice.

You can put a comment on the talk page saying you';ve done this, and inviting anyone who has doubts to say so. Or you can ask here specifically about any source or assertion that seems questionable. Andrew Dalby 19:08, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

Would Alex Jones' infowars.com website be considered a WP:RS as regards conspiracy theories? I'm thinking in particular of www.infowars.com/33-conspiracy-theories-that-turned-out-to-be-true-what-every-person-should-know/ ^{infowars.com is fringe, does not meet our sourcing guidelines and should not be used} this article, a "New World Order Report" by Jonathan Elinoff. It has been cited in the Conspiracy theory article. Jayjg ^(talk) 08:19, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

For obvious reasons it can be quite difficult to get impeccably reliable sources on one side of a conspiracy theory. :-)

Infowars is not something I would consider reliable for statements of fact about the real world, but it should be mostly OK to use them for statements about their own position or about groups/ideas they're connected to, and the Conspiracy theory article seems to be doing that (more or less), so I can live with it. I think the "Alex Jones InfoWars list itself shows the problem..." paragraph has some serious textual problems but the best answer there could be rewording rather than removing it. bobrayner (talk) 09:39, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

No, it is not rs. However, the website contains mostly links to publsihed articles which may be rs, for example if they are from mainstream media. TFD (talk) 13:41, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

If it isn't, then WP:RS is broken (in the ways I specified here). It would definitely be preferably to have a third-party, non-conspiracist, academic or mainstream media source to establish the existence of a particular conspiracy theory, using sources like Infowars/Prisonplanet/Alex Jones as a primary source for their summations. When that isn't available, treat it like a self-published source: it establishes that an opinion is held by some segment of the conspiracy theory community, but it doesn't show it is true or considered important outside that community. —Tom Morris (talk) 17:47, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

Could be a RS to confirm that a conspiracy theory exists, but not prove the theory itself. Q:Is the website a blog?--JOJ ^Hutton 17:54, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

Alex Jones and his outlets are definitely not RS (not watter what format (blog, website, radio).--Kmhkmh (talk) 18:01, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

Jayjg is omitting how Alex Jones is being used so here is the context to better judge it:

An article in the New York Times points out "Other historians argue that past government lies, particularly in the past half-century, have helped fuel conspiracy theories, by giving Americans reasons to suspect their leaders. (“See, I’m not paranoid, I’m right.”)" using Alex Jones InfoWars list www.infowars.com/33-conspiracy-theories-that-turned-out-to-be-true-what-every-person-should-know/ ^{infowars.com is fringe, does not meet our sourcing guidelines and should not be used} “33 Conspiracy Theories That Turned Out to Be True” as an example. (Zernike, Kate (April 30, 2011) "The Persistence of Conspiracy Theories" The New York Times)

Alex Jones InfoWars list itself shows the problem with trying to group all conspiracy theories together because in addition to the fully documented conspiracy theories of the Dreyfus Affair, Sicilian Mafia, Project MKULTRA, Operation Mockingbird, Watergate, Tuskegee syphilis experiment, Operation Northwoods, Nayirah (testimony), Iran-Contra Affair, CIA drug trafficking, Business Plot, Project Valkyrie, 1953 Iranian coup d'état, Operation Snow White, Operation Gladio, and Black Sox Scandal there are several often regarded as tin foil hat nonsense such as the New World Order (conspiracy theory).

How that you can actually see the context of how it is being used how do you evaluate the reliability of Alex Jones given it is used as an example of how conspiracy theory is defined by the New York Times?--BruceGrubb (talk) 21:55, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

Actually, a New York Times article is used as an excuse to coatrack in the Infowars material. That doesn't make the Infowars website reliable. Jayjg ^(talk) 23:32, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

I think it is an editorial not an article. In any case it does not refer to Watergate, etc. as "conspiracy theories". That is Alex Jones' writer trying to present a parity between his conspiracism and rational thought. The effect is that we are promoting Jones's viewpoint, rather than presenting it as his opinion. TFD (talk) 01:08, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

So is this more of a wording and weighting issue?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 06:50, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I would agree with that. bobrayner (talk) 07:22, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

Peter Knight's Conspiracy theories in American history ABC-CLIO has the following in it: Sicilian Mafia (pg 451), Project MKULTRA (pg 490), Operation Mockingbird (pg 486), Watergate (pg 725), Tuskegee syphilis experiment (pg 38, 45, 538), Operation Northwoods (pg 117), Iran-Contra Affair (pg 349), CIA drug trafficking (pg 237), Business Plot (pg 625), and Operation Gladio (pg 231) and even flat out states "Watergate is a Ur-text of US conspiracy theory, evidenced by the ubiquitous use of the suffix “-gate” to denote any major conspiracy." on page 725.--BruceGrubb (talk) 08:14, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

That infowars article by Jonathan Elinoff is terribly sourced, one-sided and wrong. There is no way it can be used at Conspiracy theory. Binksternet (talk) 08:49, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

Infowars is not a RS. None of his sites are reliable. Just because they get it right sometimes doesn't equal reliability, broken clock twice a day and all that. Niteshift36 (talk) 15:19, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

No, it's not a reliable source. At best, it's a primary source which - generally speaking - should be avoided especially for contentious content such as this. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 02:38, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

User:Binksternet did that and I did this. Do read my edit summary. Apart from a mistaken date (publication instead of event?), the obliterated information had been reasonably accurate (as the 'diff' before/now proves). In case Binksternet's edit would not have been spotted quickly, without the inadvertently wiped content, it would have been impossible to do a search on sufficiently specific sub phrases or terms and have prevented finding a proper source - thus de facto having vandalized decent content.

I am not going to run behind the long list of Binksternet's edits that refer to this here section, but expect all those pages' content for which there is no clear and urgent reason to delete, to become restored. While a {{cn}} tag should be placed, the RS-questionable source needs to remain (e.g. in a hidden <!--...--> comment that also refers to this here section) to assist helpful editors in finding useful phrases/terms for their productive internet searches.

WP:RS clearly asks for common sense. I found it lacking in that systematical quick-and-dirty series of apparently tendentious and disruptive edits, which all too drastic action had not found consensus in this here section.
​▲ SomeHuman 2011-09-20 07:33 (UTC)

You followed my "citation needed" tag with the proper citation and the proper quote, for which you should be thanked. I removed the direct quote of infowars, "A criminal act for security personnel to touch a person’s private areas without probable cause as a condition of travel or as a condition of entry into a public place", which was not useful as it was not the text of the legislation. I think we both improved the article.

In chasing down infowars references on Wikipedia, I'm keeping all the information that is attributed, and deleting the stuff that is simply using infowars as a supposedly neutral news source, without attribution. You can follow along behind or not, as you wish. Binksternet (talk) 13:13, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Infowars.com, in general, is a terrible source. But I'm not so sure about this edit.25 Self-published or questionable sources may be used as sources of information about themselves, especially in articles about themselves. In this particular case, we have a film made by Jones and we are citing a web site run by Jones about that film. OTOH, I wonder if "The Obama Deception: The Mask Comes Off" meets our notability policy and if the article should be deleted.

BTW, if you're going after infowars.com, don't forget about prisonplanet.com and the other sites Jones runs. (For example, the use of infowars.com in Paul Craig Roberts is probably OK from a verifiability standpoint.) A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 13:54, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

I will search for prisonplanet on Wikipedia. Thanks for the note! Binksternet (talk) 14:10, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Just be sure never to immediately delete content that became supported by Infowars, Prisonplanet or any other unRS: The reliability of sources being questioned does not make those sources and all that these ever stated blatant lies or wild fantasies. The content having been supported by such source must not be assumed wrong, in fact it will often be supported by WP:RS if one bothers to look for such, which often takes only a moment. Whomever found and cited a source that later became questioned or of which the contributor is most likely not aware that its reliability had been questioned, did not add something without a reference and thus that content needs to remain and only tagged by {{cn}} for at least as long a time as it takes on average, for probably some incidental other editor to become interested and, to provide a more reliable reference, or to fail at finding such upon which he/she should delete the unattributable content. Until then, as I explained yesterday at 07:33 (UTC), the UnRS needs to remain as a hidden comment to facilitate finding a replacer RS.
​▲ SomeHuman 2011-09-21 09:34-10:51 (UTC)

I'd suggest a rule of thumb: Never delete unattributed or to an unreliable source attributed content that already survived article edits by at least five different contributors. Such content requires a {{cn}} tag. In case this tag survives for a duration equal to the timespan between the first of these five edits until the tag was inserted, and also newer edits by at least five different editors have occurred since the tag was inserted, only then one can assume the questioned content to be incorrect, hard to prove, or too trivial for anyone to care; and it should then be deleted. But not earlier. I think this combines highest article quality with least controverse.
​▲ SomeHuman 2011-09-21 12:46 (UTC) Zdroj:https://en.wikipedia.org?pojem=Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_106
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