I'm concerned especially about the short (one to five sentence) articles which describe chemicals, minerals, and the like. An exapmle is MDP2P. Articles like this are marked as stubs and often appear on the list of articles to be reviewed for deletion. I think that these articles should either

1) be protected from stub status;

2) be compiled into one article that describes each item.

The reason for this is that while the articles are short like a stub, and do not give extensive information, they usually give all the information that is available. So, articles such as these should have some kind of special 'acceptable short article' status. Either that, or there should be a Chemicals page (sort of like the list of chemical articles that exists now), a Minerals page, and so on.

This wasn't in the FAQ, so I'm bringing it up. Thanks. OES23 17:57, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't see that anyone's ever nominated that article for deletion. But surely there is more info about MDP2P. Who invented / first synthesized it? What's it used for? Does it have any use, or potential use? What does it do? Does it appear in nature? On and on. I don't think people are all that anxious about notability of chemical compounds but it's the same theoretical issue. If it's not something that anyone would want to know about, it's not notable and it should be deleted or merged. If it's notable it deserves its own article, however short. Better to have one subject per article than to make extensive lists, because lists are unruly, hard to maintain, and messy for hyperlinking. ::Wikidemo 13:42, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Just to clear things up, I didn't mean this article in particular was nominated for deletion, but I was providing an example of the type of articles that are frequently nominated. OES23 13:53, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Wikidemo. I clicked on that link and, as a layperson, I don't begin to know what the heck MDP2P is. Therefore the article can be expanded quite a bit. What is MDP2P used for? Is it deadly to me? Will it damage my eggs? Did it come from outer space? Will it reverse baldness? Is it used to make Meth? Has it always been known about since the days of Lucretius? Or did some raver synthesize it while living in Miami Beach or Ibiza. If you had enough of it would it appear blue? Glow in the dark? I think the information that is already there is great for people re-taking O-Chem for a better grade, but it doesn't help art historians at all. Saudade7 12:44, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

The newly written proposal/essay/how-to/whatever Wikipedia:Gender-neutral language and its talk page essentially state that singular they is common practice on Wikipedia, apparently with the intent of promoting this as a good idea, and likewise state that this practice is frequently disputed. Outside opinion is requested on (1) how "common" this practice is, (2) how "frequently" the dispute is, and (3) whether people consider it a good idea. >Radiant< 14:13, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, the article you link to in the subject summarises it pretty well. WP:GNL suggests it as an alternative to gender-specific language but notes that it's objected to, largely because people objected to it during drafting. It could turn into a whole stack of turtles, as some people objected to the objection. This whole discussion was had a week ago, wasn't it? SamBC(talk) 14:17, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Use of "they" and "their" as singular generic pronouns is almost universal writing and informal speech. It's on the level of using "you" instead of "one" or using contractions. It does not stand out as wrong, but rather informal. We try to be a serious reference source, so I think most people try to avoid it where they can. Using "he" or "his" as a gender-neutral pronoun is even more awkward so people try to avoid that too. You can almost always word things without the need for a singular generic pronoun, so that's what people do for the most part in formal writing, including here in Wikipedia. Incidentally, in the history of English, using "he" and "his" to stand for a person of indeterminate sex is relatively new and never caught on. Before 1850 or so "they" and "their" were considered correct, but some succeeded in promoting "he" and "his." That got written into the rules of formal writing but never completely followed or accepted. I don't think the original intent was to make talking about men the norm, and women only by implication, but that's what happened with the new pronouns, and it's the reason why people are moving away from them today. The best advice for main space, I think, is to do whatever you have to do as long as you don't use "he" to stand for "he and she." You'll find that borne out in the articles. It's rare to come across one that uses male pronouns in the generic sense. Wikidemo 16:08, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

As a further thought, I'm not sure anyone wants to promote singular they in any general sense, just to give it as a way of avoiding non-gender-neutral language. SamBC(talk) 16:53, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

There are ways to use non-sexist language without violating plurality, such as using the word "s/he".ACEOREVIVED 19:10, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

If you're going to use awkward constructions like that, how about using my favorite: s/h/it? --Carnildo 02:57, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Heh, you have a point; "s/he" is pretty awkward. I'd say just go with the singular "they" where it's necessary and avoid it whenever possible. Pyrospirit (talk · contribs) 14:57, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree, it's very clunky when a sentence has s/he. To me, it implies laziness to type he or she and is an admission that the three-word pronoun is awkward as well. The singular they is well established, and according to The Columbia Guide to Standard American English, they is more established than he as the gender-nonspecific singular pronoun.—Twigboy 15:32, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

In theory "they" is grammatically accepted now, although I have to admit that I cringe a little whenever I read it in a student paper because it *sounds* so unproper. In philosophy classes I was taught to use "one" but I think people read that as British or pretentious. As a feminist I prefer "he or she" or "she or he" because it establishes that both genders are being taken into account, that their is no bias being implied and it doesn't inadvertantly multiply the number of people being referred to and sound as if the numbers are not in agreement. Using "he or she" / "she or he" tells us that we've at least *tried* to take human/sex/gender rights into account. P.S. I *did* sign my comment! Wiki is being weird! Saudade7 18:06, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

I've felt that we need a more organized system of managing articles for some time, but I'm getting tired of seeing an important article get trashed by a vandal, have the vandalism go by improperly fixed by a novice, and the article as a result deteriorate over time, with nobody being aware that anything has happened. We need a more organized system of article watching and regular review, though we just don't have the manpower to do it. Beginning with watchlists would be a start though. We need to be able to look at an article and know if it is being watched. If one watches an article for a while or spends some time going through the history section, one can probably figure out who seems to keep an eye on it. But this isn't good enough - an experienced editor should be able to obtain this information immediately and with certainty. If I find an article is being messed around with and nobody is repairing the damage, I want to know if there is somebody watching it or not. If not, somebody needs to; an appropriate Wikiproject could be contacted for example. If there is, they need to get their act together and do a better job of keeping it in good condition. If they can't do it alone, more watchers need to be recruited. We have the 'maintained' tag, but that has always tended to suggest the 'maintainer' is a scholar in that field. Ideally, we would have an expert on each subject watching that article, but anybody would be better than nothing.

Let me give an example from my experiences today. I visit the article animal, one of the most important in biology. I see it is somehow smaller than before. Something has happened. I go to the page history, replete with thousands of edits, and try to find what happened. Eventually I reach something almost two weeks ago that seems to be the problem: a vandal deleted sections, and a relatively new editor tried to fix it but missed some of the deletions . If somebody was watching this article they would never not notice something that major. Yet it still happened, and nobody seems to be any wiser. The reality is that someone probably is watching this article and has let it slip by. But I have no way to be sure someone is watching it. And if there is, I can't exactly complain to them can I?

We need to put in place a system where people can see who is watching an article. If people don't wish others to know that information, perhaps they could opt out via preferences (though it is no more of a privacy issue than being able to look through their contributions really). Alternatively, people could add their name to the talk page or somewhere else as a 'watcher', or via some indirect means, e.g. adding a template that links to articles they watch on their user page and being able to find these (e.g. via 'what links here') from the page itself. Another option is letting people select articles from their watchlist that they publicly proclaim to be watching and thereby take responsibility for their maintenance and care. They could appear in bold on the list, for example.

One problem is that vandals can find unwatched articles, but most vandals are unlikely to even know about the watchlist system, let alone how to access that information, and I believe the benefits would outweigh the costs anyway. If it was a concern, don't let anons or even newly registered users see the information. Another is that users may no longer be active but still have things on their watchlist, or they may not go through their watchlist carefully. A way of excluding those who are currently inactive would help with the first issue. On the other hand, if they had to explicitly opt in as a watcher, there would be few people doing so at first, and they may feel reluctant to take on that responsibility. There will also be those that whine about 'ownership', even if the job of the so called 'owner' is nothing more than cleaning up graffiti. But we need to be more responsible for our encyclopedia. Someone coming here should have someone they can complain to if an article is not being looked after. There should be someone there who will get the vandalism that slips through recent changes. It's a very big task to embark on but we need to start working towards it. We need to work out how to put this in place and then get people involved. Hopefully in future we will be able to say that every article on Wikipedia has someone out there looking after it, and those that receive a lot of traffic will have a dozen such people - perhaps even someone watching 24/7, or near to it. We could even start a WikiProject - perhaps "Wikipedia:WikiProject Quality control", to implement and coordinate such an effort. Is anybody with me on this, or do we just want to hope that a disorganized system will catch all the problems by itself? Richard001 02:33, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

IMO, the above is a mixed bag of proposals. Wikipedia:WikiProject Quality control is not a bad idea (too bad the shortcut WP:QC is already taken); it would overlap to some extent with Wikipedia:RC patrol, Wikipedia:New pages patrol, Wikipedia:Counter-Vandalism Unit, and such. A "these users watch this article for vandalism" template like {{maintained}} might not hurt, although it could as easily be a part of the banner for the above mentioned WikiProject as a generic banner. I think public watchlists are not such a good idea, although if anyone really wants one they can always just create Special:Mypage/Watchlist and use Special:Recentchangeslinked to watch the pages on it. I think the chances of vandals looking for unwatched articles is greatly underestimated. Anomie 03:15, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Yeah that's why the unwatched articles special page is restricted to admins. Not a good idea. The template thing maybe.

Equazcion • argue/improves • 03:25, 09/23/2007

You are already aware of the problems with keeping a list or count of the users watching each article. A substantial proportion of the really active users are admins and have access to the list of unwatched articles, but that list only includes the first 1000 such articles and currently doesn't get as far as articles beginning with the letter 'a'. Providing a complete list of unwatched articles, or a mechanism which allows an admin to see a count of watchers for any page, would be more helpful, but I think this latter cannot be done efficiently with the current database structure.

I think a public watchlist is a better idea. I maintain one for vandalism-prone New Zealand-related articles. If Wikipedia:WikiProject Biology doesn't do so, perhaps you could start one.-gadfium 04:07, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Placing a template "This uses watches this page for vandalism" would be too trivial a thing for most purposes to place on a talk page, and it would require a lot of work for a person to manage them. If unwatched pages were a problem for vandals, we could solve the problem easily by only letting trusted users see the information, however we have no way of knowing telling apart trustworthy users from those who are not in an automated fashion. Even so, blocking users who have not been around X days and/or made X edits would almost certainly filter out any mischief. The administrators tool sounds useless, though it points out there are far too many articles not being watched, based on your description. People shouldn't have to become admins just to see such information though.

Having a public watchlist that is systematically gone through by people may be a functionally similar alternative or compliment. I'll think more on that possibility. Richard001 05:58, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't want the world to easily know what articles I am watching. I know it is paranoid, but as someone who is a citizen of the United States, I feel over-surveilled already. I don't actually do anything wrong, mind you, but in my country it no longer matters if you do something wrong or not. Interest in a subject is enough to get you on certain watchlists. I don't mind if the information is all encrypted and just shows numbers/statistics, but I don't want it to be like when the government records who you travel with, what books you check out of the library, who you call on the phone. Globally, there are also academics being arrested now in Germany because they were "intelligent enough" to have written certain things. I just have my reservations about "lists". Thanks, Saudade7 18:25, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, it isn't really an issue, Saudade. People can opt out, or, probably better still, opt in. My point was it's not all that different from look at your contribs. People seldom watch articles they've never edited. I can browse every edit you've ever made here quite easily, seeing both what you've edited and what you've written with ease using popups. I could stalk you if I wanted to, and you wouldn't even know I was doing it. It wouldn't be that big a difference. But the problem is, at the moment, I have no reasonable way of finding out if anybody is bothering to watch an article. With animal, I ended up posting a message on the talk page asking if anybody watches it. I got no reply, though someone else volunteered to start watching it. I'm still no wiser as to whether anyone was watching it in the first place; all I know is that if there were any they don't want to reply. I don't see any way in which we can hope to have decent quality here if there is no system in place to see that articles have at least one person keeping an eye on them. A public watchlist would only work if it included all articles in a given category or categories, and if it was systematically checked by everyone. I think this option is a much better idea, but nobody seems to be interested in it. Richard001 03:31, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

But there is a difference. I don't watch anything I edit and vice versa. I use my watchlist only to bookmark articles I've stumbled across but think I might not remember later. There are at least 100 articles that I am "watching". That said, I am a private person. I think of my edits as my publications but my watchlist as a personal journal. I know full well that people can see what I edit and thus I do so with that knowledge in mind. I spent some time before putting things on my watchlist trying to see what was on other people's watchlists, when I found that I couldn't I started adding stuff to my own. It isn't really that I have things that are perverse or dangerous that I am hiding. And as a cultural historian I am able to look at all the perverse and dangerous stuff I want without consequence. (I'm not some closeted politician from Idaho, e.g.) I just don't think people need to know everything I am slightly curious about or interested in. I don't like the way the world is turning into a system where people, with more power and access to information than I, can find out every single thing about me and yet I am kept in the dark about what corporations and my government etc. actually know about me, and especially what *they* are up to otherwise. I know it sounds paranoid, but I prefer to err on the side of caution. This world, especially the U.S. is going to hell and I just want to keep some things to myself. Saudade7 13:16, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Here's another case : A driveby anon fiddling with a low profile chemistry article that I just happened to be watching. With an organized system of watching we could cover all the low profile pages systematically, avoiding this sort of crap. Richard001 00:41, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm advertising this page here as well because fewer people seem to read Wikipedia:Village pump (miscellaneous). A.Z. 22:49, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

I am trying to connect with individuals in the wikipedia community who are interested in working on an open source programming project to create a visualized interface to map wikipedia. I have started to draft a proposal in my Sandbox, but am not sure where the most appropriate location is to post such a proposal or connect with interested people. Does anyone have suggestions, feedback, comments? Thanks! SlvrDreams 20:20, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Linking to off-wiki harassment is proposed at the suggestion of the arbitration committee. Please have a look. ←Ben^B4 06:08, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Not to be cynucal, but it apears to have been written by a sock puppet, Privatemusings (talk · contribs), and the discussion thus far appears to be dominated by people who oppose having an off-wiki harassment policy. I hope that everyone who's participated will be open to other viewpoints. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 06:17, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm having trouble understanding how the discussion can be dominated by people who oppose having an off-wiki harassment policy, when they all seem to be supporting the proposal. It does not appear that Privatemusings is an abusive sockpuppet, and it seems he faithfully distilled Newyorkbrad's suggestions. ←Ben^B4 12:22, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Hasn't BADSITE already been rejected? Atropos 07:21, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

I think we need to require usernames for people to edit. 99% of the vandalism I see come from anon users.

Because its so easy to edit wikipedia (just click an article and click "edit") these vandalizers don't need to put much effort messing up pages.

The idea of a "everyone can edit" is ideal, but it doesn't work when we have vandals.

A required username will force vandals to make a username and takes a longer time for them to damage wikipedia. Requiring usernames will also curb vandals since they don't want to go in the trouble of making one. Good friend100 02:00, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

This is suggested quite regularly, and will never happen because it's a Foundation principle that anyone can edit. Quite apart from all the reasons people can trot out as to why anon editing is a good thing. SamBC(talk) 02:09, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, I think Wikipedia's hurting itself, and if its suggested regularly, then Wikipedia has some problems addressing their own issues. Its reasonable to say that 99% of vandalism comes from anon users. Good friend100 02:21, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

See WP:PEREN#Prohibit_anonymous_users_from_editing, the section most convinving to you would likely be:

While about 97% of vandalism comes from anonymous users, about 76% or 82% of anonymous edits are intended to improve the encyclopedia. (Prohibiting IP edits would not eliminate 97% of all vandalism, because if they have to, those inclined to vandalism are likely to take the 10 seconds to register.)

--Ybbor^Talk 02:24, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

I'd just like to add that the concept of "You can edit this page right now" is one the most innovative things about Wikipedia, and what makes it so unique and interesting. It's what got me interested in the first place, and I suspect that's the case with many people. An online community is nothing new -- but when people see that Wikipedia is trusting anyone at all to edit without even requiring registration, that's an especially intriguing concept that gets people interested in learning more. I'd go out on a limb and say that most editors here made their first edits as anonymous users.

Equazcion • argue/improves • 23:43, 09/26/2007

And by the way, you're hurting my feelings. 68.101.123.219 01:32, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, the Foundation said so, and we're run by the foundation, and, well, you know what happens next. ~user:orngjce223 how am I typing? 21:51, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

So we have a few different placeholder images that appear in articles that don't yet have portraits. (Of course a few people think that we shouldn't have them in articles at all. Maybe they don't want the general public to contribute their images? Or they're ashamed of the fact that it's a wiki? But that's beside the point...)

I've thought that the current images were an eyesore for quite a while, looking as if it were thrown together without much thought, and there've been a bunch of complaints on related talk pages, so I tried to make a better version that others could continue improving on. But it's apparently not liked, either, and was instantly reverted.  :-)

I changed:

• The fonts - The mixed fonts look as if it was a mistake to me; meant to be in a font that the SVG renderer couldn't handle and it fell back on serif. The serif looks really out of place in an infobox of all sans. See discussion on the talk page: Wikipedia_talk:Fromowner#Very_ugly_and_distracting
• The wording - "Do you own one? If so please click here" just sounds bad. I used "Click here to upload one", but I'm sure you can think of something better. See the discussion on the talk page: Wikipedia_talk:Fromowner#Wording. Also got rid of the big space between the lines, which also looked like a rendering mistake to me.
• The colors - I first looked around Google Image Search for placeholder images to base the new versions on, and most have a visible box around them instead of being transparent or white on white. I liked the look of the light gray/blue box the best, on a white background with a dark silhouette. (Apparently the blue background - which I got from here - is the most-loathed aspect of my design. I'm completely fine with a light gray background instead.) Here are some other variations to compare to: 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11
• The building image - Original was kind of crude-looking, so I made something completely different with a skyline.

Compare the originals:

• 
  Male portrait
• 
  Female portrait
• 
  Neutral portrait
• 
  Building photo

With mine:

• 
  Male portrait
• 
  Female portrait
• 
  Neutral portrait
• 
  Building photo

Please provide opinions and alternative ideas. Keep in mind that they are used a few different ways; infoboxes, thumbnail frames, bare images, etc. — Omegatron 08:09, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

• Support generally as these are improved images that will look nicer on article pages, although to the extent that they're by necessity generic and full of text they remain somewhat ugly. (I see the point. I just feel it's the equivalent of having text in an article that says "...where he died in 1862. Have more information? Click here to edit the article.") Given that I would like at least two more improvements. The "neutral" head should be framed the same way, with the scalp near the top (or the NASA plaque people should have more headspace, but that leaves less room for text). The building image should be simpler and something that can similarly contain the text "No free image". Also, make sure there's enough torso space for the lower text; the woman and neutral silhouettes don't have enough. And not to add to your workload, but why isn't there an even more generic one for topics that aren't people or buildings? --Dhartung | Talk 08:37, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

There isImage:Replace this image.svg I just don't like it because I would rather things were specialized and the responsibility for sorting out the resulting images given over to wikiprojects.Genisock2 14:47, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Joe Blow
Born	2007-08-26 Wikimedia Commons
Occupation	Placeholder
Known for	Blue background

Jay Gray
Another attempt
Born	2007-08-27 Wikimedia Commons
Occupation	Placeholder
Known for	Gray background, lighter silhouette, bold top text, -"one", no gaps at shoulders, head centered a bit

• Comment: I do overall like the idea. The thing I hated most about the current ones was the wording, and the lack of a comma in the female and neutral ones. I also really don't like the use of "one" stylistically. You also touch on an unresolved issue: how far do we go in directly soliciting help from the general public? If we don't do it in text (as Dhartung points out), then why are we ok with doing it in images? Let's seriously work on the wording here.

I think you've improved a bit on the colours, but it was actually better with different fonts. The key message is "We don't have an image, that's why we're displaying this stupid graphic" - the appeal for help is secondary. So keeping "No free image" big and bold would be good (though without the serif/sans difference). The text smeared haphazardly across the skyline looks bad. Only other comment is I'm not sure I really see the need for male/female versions. Isn't neutral sufficient? Stevage 14:13, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

If you look at how the images are used in articles there generaly are framed either by thumbs or by info boxes.Genisock2 14:47, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

• A welcome improvement. I agree that the use of "one" is not stylistically ideal; does anyone have ideas? --Iamunknown 15:33, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

• "Click here to upload" seems reasonable. -Chunky Rice 16:26, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

• I am among those who would prefer they be removed completely, not because I'm "ashamed that it's a wiki" but because when I visit an article it's 99% of the time to learn something about the subject, and to have this irrelevant template draw my eyes away from the text is really distracting. I think your new images would actually be a step backward from the current images, because the blue/dark gray, while "prettier", is higher-contrast with the white background and therefore even more eye-catching. I like what you've done with the fonts and the skyline, though, and would approve a switch to a version of the images with the same color scheme as before but with those improvements. Redquark 23:27, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

The original colour setup was chosen with the ability to tune out the images in mind.Geni 04:12, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

The building image should be simpler and something that can similarly contain the text "No free image".

Agreed. Need to find a building to trace that's more generic and rectangular and close up.

The thing I hated most about the current ones was the wording, and the lack of a comma in the female and neutral ones.

Yes.

I also really don't like the use of "one" stylistically.

I agree that the use of "one" is not stylistically ideal

Agreed, too. I couldn't think of anything else clear and short enough.

how far do we go in directly soliciting help from the general public? If we don't do it in text

We don't?  :-)

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