The proposal and discussion can be found at Template talk:RfA#Proposal to change the following sentence.

The Transhumanist 19:30, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Argh, I've made a liar of myself now! But this really will be my last proposal for now :-)

I'm just wondering if articles should have a place where readers can submit any concerns they have about them, ie anything from poor spelling/grammar to factual inaccuracy, etc etc (this could potentially be an alternative to my other proposal of offering more information to novices on how to edit pages).

I thought of this as a bit of a spin-off of my concerns re POV tags above, as I was thinking perhaps readers could register concerns about non-neutrality of articles, but I now think it could have a much wider application.

Any thoughts on this one? Jonathanmills (talk) 17:51, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

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I think it would be great. Kevin Baas^talk 18:00, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the vote of support, Kevin! :-)

I like your template, although I had in mind something more like:

"If you believe this article contains spelling/grammar errors, factual innacuracies, or a lack of neutrality etc etc, please register your concerns here." Jonathanmills (talk) 18:10, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Oh, and that should probably be 'spelling/grammatical errors' ;-) Jonathanmills (talk) 18:12, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

The talk page serves this function already. -kotra (talk) 18:27, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Exactly. If you want to "talk about" as page, you go to its "talk page". Simple, really. --Philosopher ^{Let us reason together.} 19:32, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Anyone else remember when Yahoo news stories used to have "discussion" pages? To describe what went on there as trolling would be putting it mildly. I shudder to think what the discussion sections of George W. Bush or Islam would look like. Right now, we can pretty much keep a handle on this on the talk page by cutting stuff out that doesn't seek to improve the article, it would be a much more difficult task to keep a "What do you think" section constructive. AlexiusHoratius (talk) 19:58, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Wikinews articles do have discussion pages. I don't think this should be brought into wikipedia though since we are an encylopaedia Nil Einne (talk) 20:03, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

There are times where I wish I could discuss the topic, rather than the article. I think as long as we kept true to WP:CIVIL, it could work. *shrug* EVula // talk // ☯ // 20:26, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree, talk pages are already a good place to leave feedback for the most part. We don't even need separate section. GO-PCHS-NJROTC (talk) 20:43, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Actually, on second thought, I think it might be a good idea to have one for Wikipedia in general. Wait a minute, that's what Village Pump is! What if we were to move Village Pump to Wikipedia:Feedback? GO-PCHS-NJROTC (talk) 20:46, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

It maybe wouldn't be such a bad idea to have something like that for developers to see. I think it would be a fantastic idea to have something that says "Rate this article" on the side of the screen like the ones at Wiktionary and Uncyclopedia. GO-PCHS-NJROTC (talk) 00:29, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

I think this suggestion could be substantially different from talk pages. That's one reason I suggested the template that i did. If people could have a simpler, more direct means to entire comments about the article, I think we'd get a lot more feedback. My template, above, is for at the bottom of the page - so they can't miss it. And you don't have to browse to another page, you just type right there - and you don't feel compelled to wait for a response. you just type and click. the purpose of it would be completely different. it would be a means of customer review, rather than a means of coordinating changes and improvements to the article. It would be closer to a rating system (how many stars?) than a discussion page - but it would be a free-form system, which could be much more helpful. Kevin Baas^talk 14:44, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Like I say, my idea was to allow a place to register concerns about actual errors/problems (whether in language, matters of fact or issues of non-neutrality) rather than a general comments page. It could function as a sort of e-form where boxes are ticked and a one-line description of the concern is entered. Does anyone have any thoughts on that idea? Jonathanmills (talk) 00:53, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

That's really what the talk page is for, though. -- Kesh (talk) 14:21, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Hi Kesh. Yeah, I think my idea is partly based on what I've suggested in my proposal above ('Explanation for Wiki novices'), in that I do believe there are many people out there who won't even get to that stage (ie going to the talk page) unless it is 'formally introduced' to them (for want of a better expression).

But beyond that, I think it could serve a useful purpose for readers who don't have the time or inclination to go to the talk page but just want to highlight the presence of errors/non-neutrality.

Cheers for your feedback. Jonathanmills (talk) 16:54, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

You know what, one could just put a text box at the bottom of the article like the template above, and when the comment is submitted, it creates a new section on the talk page and puts the comment there. This would solve the argument about the suggestion being redundant w/talk pages. And it would be very simple to implement. It also more clearly shows the intention of it in relation to talk pages: to provide a more quicker and more visible mechanism of getting reader feedback - and thus to get more feedback.

It might, in fact, get too much feedback, filling up the talk page, making it difficult to carry on a discussion. The obvious solution to this would be to have it stored and displayed separately. Hence the original proposal. Kevin Baas^talk 15:20, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

I have made a new proposal regarding images here Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#New_proposal_on_images - I would appreciate any comments, suggestions, advice etc. Thanks Gustav von Humpelschmumpel (talk) 20:48, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia pages use the term "watchlist" for two very different things:

• The list of pages being watched
• The list of edits that have been just been done to the pages being watched

I propose that the first be called the "watchlist", as is the case now, and the second be consistently called the "watchlist report". Consider how the "Watchlist" tab in "my preferences" should read (these are six options, each with a checkbox in front of it):

• Hide my edits from the watchlist report
• Hide bot edits from the watchlist report
• Hide minor edits from my watchlist report
• Add pages I create to my watchlist
• Add pages I edit to my watchlist
• Add pages I move to my watchlist

Now remove the word "report" from the first three items. Much more confusing, yes? But that's the way it reads now (note the attempt to make a distinction by saying "the watchlist" rather than "my watchlist"; very subtle). Similarly, Special:Watchlist generates something called "My watchlist", but it should really be called "My watchlist report" (or just "Watchlist report"). -- John Broughton (♫♫) 21:38, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

I never considered it ambiguous, as the first three options refer to types of edits, the latter three refer to auto-add conditions, and they can't be reasonably thought of the other way around. However, if this is a common misunderstanding, I'd support rephrasing the first three to "from watched changes", since that's how the watchlist itself distinguishes Special:Watchlist from its /edit and /edit/raw versions. --erachima talk 00:18, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

As yes, "watched changes". Somehow I think "display watchlist report" is more understandable than "display watched changes". But at least we agree that there is are inconsistencies in what things are called. -- John Broughton (♫♫) 02:27, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

I propose adding an "analysis" tab to every mainspace article. The purpose of this Analysis page is to have a place where users can write original research about the article topic, however, with the following constraints:

• wp:verifiability applied more strictly than on article page. All assumptions made in analysis essays must be verifiable, but conclusions can be original research. Unsourced assumptions should be removed, even if uncontroversial.
• Any conclusions reached in the analysis page must be relevant to a specific statement in the article page.
• Empirical data must come from reliable sources. Users are not allowed to include surveys they have conducted themselves, for instance.
• WP:neutral still applies.

I feel that a lot of useful information has disappeared from wikipedia since it began its heavy-handed crackdown on original research. It's a shame, because three or four years ago the best part of many wikipedia articles was often the original research. It was often the reason I came to Wikipedia and not a traditional medium. So many articles have become so ... dry since then. Often users have made well-reasoned, well backed-up arguments. Why should wikipedia remove those arguments simply because a scholar hasn't bothered to publish them in a traditional medium yet? I know that technically this would go beyond an the scope of an encyclopedia, but wikipedia is not about emulating a paper encyclopedia, it is about spreading knowledge. Cambrasa 02:19, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't think that such a proposal can really go beyond larval stage, WP:OR has become one of the key policies in terms of content quality, I don't even want to imagine what effect this will have on some articles, particulary the fiction ones. - Caribbean~H.Q. 02:25, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Just to expand on the above comment, what I meant was that the introduction of a "analysis page" in some fictional topics will undoubtly just leave us with massive forums of endless fanboy theories and other fanfics, it would be a huge mess in those that cover extremely popular characters or shows. - Caribbean~H.Q. 02:30, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

if it meets an even stricter standard of WP:V, how is it original research? Johnbod (talk) 02:42, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

The conclusions are original research, not the assumptions. For example, a study published in a reputable journal would be allowed to be used as a criticism of a statement in the article. There would be no more requirement that the connection has been made by a notable person. Cambrasa 11:35, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

WP:RSs are not required to be produced by the notable, but I suppose I see what you are getting at. Johnbod (talk) 16:26, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

to do this right would require editors of acknowledged competence capable of evaluating the quality and of the article. As our editors are not screened, this cannot be done. There are other projects where the editors are, and this way of working might be appropriate there. DGG (talk) 13:05, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

I am opposed to this idea for two reasons. One, it would greatly complicate Wikipedia, adding extra bureaucracy and distracting from our goal. Two, it is beyond the scope of Wikipedia. Wikipedia is the sum of all human knowledge, not the sum of all human opinions. This might work on another project, but not here. Pyrospirit (talk · contribs) 22:10, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

It seems a bizarre distinction to me, that opinions published in journals and newspapers are considered "knowledge" and allowed in Wikipedia, but opinions by Wikipedia users are not. What makes the journal editor so much more trustworthy than the Wikipedia editor? Sure, journals have peer review, but so does Wikipedia, and the majority of "opinions" published in journals are junk too. Cambrasa 15:12, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

• I apologise if I seem dense, but if a statement is verifiable (and attributable to a reliable source), then it is not original research — at least as far as I can see. — Thomas H. Larsen 04:29, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Again: The "analysis" page is not simply a collection of verifiable statements, it a page that allows conlusions to derived from those statements. Basically it is a place where WP:SYN should be legalised. Cambrasa 15:01, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

To respond to Cambrasa's comparison of wikipedia editors and journal editors: while it is true that the WP editor may be as knowledgeable, or even more so, than any given editor in a journal, WP is not set up to prove expertise or even to confirm real-life identities. A significant part of giving weight to, or ascribing merit to, conclusions is the reputation of the person drawing them. WP's "peer review", for example, is often merely a review by any passing editor who takes a shine to the title. "Peer review" in a journal is a review by acknowledged experts in the specific field. WP may have such experts, but has no real way of identifying them. ៛ Bielle (talk) 15:45, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

And, to state the obvious, Wikipedia is an encyclopedia - of human knowledge -- not a journal. There's a big difference.Doug Weller (talk) 23:39, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

You say that the analysis has to be neutral, however that's extremely difficult to achieve. Confirmation bias would be almost unavoidable, I expect. --Tango (talk) 23:45, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

This is a recipe for disaster. We already have enough problems in fiction articles and articles which attract controversy like Global warming and Evolution or even something in the Palestinian-Israeli conflict (let alone articles on psychics and stuff). Can you imagine the amount of problems that will occur if people are allowed to add what junk conclusions they want? At the current time, we just have to deal with the often silly conclusions drawn from various sources but these conclusions at least usually come from experts and undue is usually relatiely easy to establish there. Allowing every person in the street to add their own conclusion is just a recipe for disaster. Nil Einne (talk) 09:48, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Despite my initial sympathy for Cambrasa's proposal to accommodate what might be called "original deductions" (I'm interested in paleontology, where the fossil record is very stingy with evidence; occasionally the academic papers propose ideas that are based on the limited evidence but fly in the face of well-accepted wider biological principles), I oppose the proposal for exactly the reasons that Nil Einne has just stated. Philcha (talk) 10:16, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

The analysis would not simply allow every conceivable conclusion. It would only allow sound, logically consistent, well articulated and well-backed up conclusions. Consensus would decide which conclusions are sound and which aren't. A balance of supporting and opposing conclusions should be presented for a contentious topic. This arleady works in article space, despite people adding junk all the time. Why should it not work in "analysis" space? Remember, 4-5 years ago Wikipedia did not have the clear policies for style, neutrality, verifiablity, etc. that it has now. Yet users still managed to reach an agreement organically, and the policies crystallised over the years. I believe that a similar set of policies would eventually emerge for the "analysis" pages, and those would prevent disaster. Cambrasa confab 08:51, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Okay, let's play fair and balanced! From the "Wikipedia is not censored" point of view, this fits Wikipedia policy perfectly. However, from the common sense point of view, a policy like this would probably support the unreliability theory; this could potentially open the door for false information on Wikipedia. GO-PCHS-NJROTC (talk) 19:51, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Oppose. I'm against it for all the reasons already mentioned. Let Google Knol deal with this sort of stuff. We can consider admitting original research once we have a reliable encyclopedia and nowhere to go. --Adoniscik^{(t, c)} 04:27, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

I hope it's not bad form to raise two proposals at once!

But I just wanted to also voice my concern that there appears to be no real sanction on even quite blatant violations of 'Wikiquette'. IE, despite the directives on 'no personal attacks', 'being civil', etc, editors who blatantly ignore them face no punishment (or very small punishment, only when the behaviour reaches a total extreme).

I think the tone of debate would improve immeasurably on certain talk pages if, through judicious use of 24-hour blocks (gradually extending for repeat offenders), editors were made aware that they in fact *had* to stick to 'Wikiquette' rather than choose to ignore it.

And as I said in my previous post, I don't want to adopt a self-righteous tone here. I would be more than happy to receive the odd 24-hour block if I stepped out of line, if it meant others faced the same rules.

Anyone who thinks this isn't necessary IMHO needs to check out the tone on some of the more heated pages, and the quality of article that comes from them.

Again, any thoughts on this from anyone? Jonathanmills (talk) 01:40, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

My thoughts on this issue are "Welcome to Wikipedia." Its the way the cookie crumbles, and the only solution is to grow a thick skin. In the long run you'll be respected for it. Incidentally, this page is not the right place for your questions :) You can either ask on your own talk page and add {{help}} (someone will be along shortly), or ask at Wikipedia:New contributors' help page. -- Fullstop (talk) 02:23, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Erm... not sure about this Fullstop. I thought this was a proposal page? I am making a proposal, not just asking for clarification... But I beg your pardon if I've misunderstood what you're saying.

As for the 'welcome to Wikipedia'... hmm... I don't know why allowing poor behaviour (stuff that is specifically, but toothlessly, warned against) is, or should be, integral to Wikipedia. If editors have to be 'thick-skinned', as you put it, it is inevitably going to diminish the number who will bother (at the very least), which seems to me a fairly bad outcome.

I don't consider myself thin-skinned at all, but I believe the quality of articles suffers (not least in terms of neutrality) when personal attacks, uncivil tone etc are allowed to flourish.

And now I REALLY have to go to bed. ;-) Jonathanmills (talk) 02:42, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

We have a page for Wikiquette alerts, and administrators frequently get reports of harassment and attacks there and at WP:ANI. We do block users for blatant and/or repeated civility breaches, especially after they've been warned to stop. If you're having problems working with users, you are encouraged to seek dispute resolution or report the situation to one of the pages linked previously. However, Fullstop is to some degree correct - things frequently get heated, and as I said, we only apply blocks in severe situations, not to cool situations down. Hersfold ^(t/a/c) 04:02, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your input, Hersfold.

When you write, "Fullstop is to some degree correct - things frequently get heated, and as I said, we only apply blocks in severe situations, not to cool situations down", I know that, and it is that policy which I am suggesting needs changing -- ie, punishment needs to kick in at a much lower level than currently, and get more progressively more severe for repeat offences.

This is because I think one of the most glaring flaws in today's Wikipedia is that it is far too easy for articles on controversial subjects to get 'hijacked' by a group of like-minded editors who have no interest in writing things in a neutral, encyclopaedic manner, and a hostile, bullying tone on talk pages means people lose interest in trying to improve them. It also means those *without* thick skins are basically unable to participate, and I don't think this is particularly desirable either.

This seems a fairly poor outcome to me. If you want specific examples, I'd suggest any number of articles on recent Balkan history (where Serbs, Croats and Muslims/Bosniaks are at each other's throats), but I'm sure there are many other similar areas. Jonathanmills (talk) 17:30, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Something you'd learn quickly if you ever participated in an RfA is that cool down blocks are not considered cool. I totally agree with the idea of blocking cyberbullies, but I think that more serious blocks should be used instead of cool down blocks. Aren't cyberbullies already being blocked? GO-PCHS-NJROTC (talk) 01:20, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Argh, I've made a liar of myself now! But this really will be my last proposal for now :-)

I'm just wondering if articles should have a place where readers can submit any concerns they have about them, ie anything from poor spelling/grammar to factual inaccuracy, etc etc (this could potentially be an alternative to my other proposal of offering more information to novices on how to edit pages).

I thought of this as a bit of a spin-off of my concerns re POV tags above, as I was thinking perhaps readers could register concerns about non-neutrality of articles, but I now think it could have a much wider application.

Any thoughts on this one? Jonathanmills (talk) 17:51, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

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I think it would be great. Kevin Baas^talk 18:00, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the vote of support, Kevin! :-)

I like your template, although I had in mind something more like:

"If you believe this article contains spelling/grammar errors, factual innacuracies, or a lack of neutrality etc etc, please register your concerns here." Jonathanmills (talk) 18:10, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Oh, and that should probably be 'spelling/grammatical errors' ;-) Jonathanmills (talk) 18:12, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

The talk page serves this function already. -kotra (talk) 18:27, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Exactly. If you want to "talk about" as page, you go to its "talk page". Simple, really. --Philosopher ^{Let us reason together.} 19:32, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Anyone else remember when Yahoo news stories used to have "discussion" pages? To describe what went on there as trolling would be putting it mildly. I shudder to think what the discussion sections of George W. Bush or Islam would look like. Right now, we can pretty much keep a handle on this on the talk page by cutting stuff out that doesn't seek to improve the article, it would be a much more difficult task to keep a "What do you think" section constructive. AlexiusHoratius (talk) 19:58, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Wikinews articles do have discussion pages. I don't think this should be brought into wikipedia though since we are an encylopaedia Nil Einne (talk) 20:03, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

There are times where I wish I could discuss the topic, rather than the article. I think as long as we kept true to WP:CIVIL, it could work. *shrug* EVula // talk // ☯ // 20:26, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree, talk pages are already a good place to leave feedback for the most part. We don't even need separate section. GO-PCHS-NJROTC (talk) 20:43, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Actually, on second thought, I think it might be a good idea to have one for Wikipedia in general. Wait a minute, that's what Village Pump is! What if we were to move Village Pump to Wikipedia:Feedback? GO-PCHS-NJROTC (talk) 20:46, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

It maybe wouldn't be such a bad idea to have something like that for developers to see. I think it would be a fantastic idea to have something that says "Rate this article" on the side of the screen like the ones at Wiktionary and Uncyclopedia. GO-PCHS-NJROTC (talk) 00:29, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

I think this suggestion could be substantially different from talk pages. That's one reason I suggested the template that i did. If people could have a simpler, more direct means to entire comments about the article, I think we'd get a lot more feedback. My template, above, is for at the bottom of the page - so they can't miss it. And you don't have to browse to another page, you just type right there - and you don't feel compelled to wait for a response. you just type and click. the purpose of it would be completely different. it would be a means of customer review, rather than a means of coordinating changes and improvements to the article. It would be closer to a rating system (how many stars?) than a discussion page - but it would be a free-form system, which could be much more helpful. Kevin Baas^talk 14:44, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Like I say, my idea was to allow a place to register concerns about actual errors/problems (whether in language, matters of fact or issues of non-neutrality) rather than a general comments page. It could function as a sort of e-form where boxes are ticked and a one-line description of the concern is entered. Does anyone have any thoughts on that idea? Jonathanmills (talk) 00:53, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

That's really what the talk page is for, though. -- Kesh (talk) 14:21, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Hi Kesh. Yeah, I think my idea is partly based on what I've suggested in my proposal above ('Explanation for Wiki novices'), in that I do believe there are many people out there who won't even get to that stage (ie going to the talk page) unless it is 'formally introduced' to them (for want of a better expression).

But beyond that, I think it could serve a useful purpose for readers who don't have the time or inclination to go to the talk page but just want to highlight the presence of errors/non-neutrality.

Cheers for your feedback. Jonathanmills (talk) 16:54, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

You know what, one could just put a text box at the bottom of the article like the template above, and when the comment is submitted, it creates a new section on the talk page and puts the comment there. This would solve the argument about the suggestion being redundant w/talk pages. And it would be very simple to implement. It also more clearly shows the intention of it in relation to talk pages: to provide a more quicker and more visible mechanism of getting reader feedback - and thus to get more feedback.

It might, in fact, get too much feedback, filling up the talk page, making it difficult to carry on a discussion. The obvious solution to this would be to have it stored and displayed separately. Hence the original proposal. Kevin Baas^talk 15:20, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm thinking of getting a bot made that would remove inactive users and maintainers, but it probably needs some wider discussion first. Inactive members (I'm thinking WikiProjects) give the false impression of activity. They should be moved to an inactive list or removed (probably removed for users who have been inactive for a long time, e.g. a year or two). The bot could notify people that they have been removed too, in case they come back (or move them back, if they are on an inactive list).

Even more importantly, we don't want people maintaining articles and then disappearing, while continuing to look like they are maintaining the article. These should be removed within a fairly short period of time, maybe a month or so. The bot could also keep a list of removals and add them back if they become active. Again, it would notify maintainers such that they could re-add themselves if they wanted to when they come back.

The issue is whether we should have such a bot (I can't see any reasonable objection), and how long people should be inactive before being removed. For maintainers, I suggest one month (we don't want to look like an encyclopedia that takes a year to update itself). For WikiProject participants, this could be decided by the project (the bot could accept a time period as an input). On the other hand, it might be better that all projects have their participant list/page swept every now and again to remove inactive users, especially when the project itself is fairly or totally inactive (they'll hardly be getting the bot to do it themselves, will they?). However, this is something that could be worked out at the council. Richard001 (talk) 10:05, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm fairly sure such a bot is possible, though I haven't received confirmation yet. Richard001 (talk) 10:05, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

First of all, the bot should move editor names from a "Participants" section to an "Inactive participants" section, not delete them entirely. Those names are a potential resource - the editors may return at some point in the future.

Second, I don't understand what you mean by "maintainers" (of articles); per WP:OWN, no one owns an article. For example, I've never seen editor names listed on an article's discussion/talk page as being maintainers. (If you're referring to an internal WikiProject page, I really think you should reconsider a bot doing edits - first, these are probably in a lot of different formats, particularly tables - so there is a high probability of a bot screwing up; second, an active partipant in a project can quickly figure out if an article isn't being maintained. (The participants list is different; it's useful to both individuals considering joining, and for the WikiProject Council to track inactive projects; and, of course, it's typically just a bulleted list.) -- John Broughton (♫♫) 15:07, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

I guess there's no harm in moving inactive members to an inactive list, though I have often removed them completely myself when they have been gone for a year or more.

By maintainers, I mean people who maintain an article. The definition is vague and has several dimensions. It's also fairly obscure, as there is only {{maintained}} and no Wikipedia:Article maintenance. You seem to have randomly jumped from 'maintains' to 'owns'. Maintainers simply prevent vandalism and uncontroversial deleterious edits from getting through (which they do so everywhere); let's not create straw men. They may also work on expanding the article and/or be an expert on the subject, thus the concept is fairly broad. They are, as I see them, basically just people who are watching the article, but who are doing so in a serious manner and who are taking responsibility for (not ownership of) it (informal watchers cannot be blamed for letting bad stuff through; maintainers can).

If you have never seen the maintained template, you either haven't looked at many talk pages or have had less luck in seeing than than I have, but it isn't that common. It has been proposed for deletion three times, but survived each time. Your suggestion that a WikiProject member can easily identify an unmaintained article is just plain absurd. Firstly, anybody should be able to identify if an article is being maintained (e.g. a reader concerned that vandalism is sneaking through should have someone to report it to). But even 'WikiProject members' (and there's a continuous spectrum from members to non-members, of course) certainly have no easy way of working this out. There's no way of asking an article who watches it, so all you can really do is look at the edit history. But the edit history and talk page take much effort to look through, and even then you have very little idea of what is actually going on. To give just one example, people can regularly add to an article without making any effort to watchlist it and remove vandalism. As I've tried to explain on my user page, there are numerous benefits to maintaining articles and I think we desperately need a system of doing so. But this isn't the place for that discussion. As long as the maintained template remains in use we need to remove inactive maintainers. I've removed one from an article recently that had been inactive for over a year. Richard001 (talk) 04:03, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, it's always interesting to discover yet another aspect of Wikipedia. The {{maintained}} template seems to be on about 2,500 talk pages; that's roughly one out of a thousand articles at Wikipedia; so yes, there are a lot, but they're also easy to miss.

More to the point, I agree wholeheartedly with deleting this template if the editor is inactive - and please ignore my speculation about maintenance being done via WikiProjects.

As for deleting inactive editors versus moving them to an inactive list, I can see the point about editors who have been gone for a year being removed. But I think there will be less reason for future complaints if information is retained (but relabeled) rather than just deleted. -- John Broughton (♫♫) 20:28, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

I've filed a bot request, so all I can really do now is hope someone takes it up. Richard001 (talk) 11:38, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Deletion: Strong oppose, why should inactive editors be any different than inactive WikiProjects? Inactive WikiProjects are archived, not deleted. Inactive user list: Support, the bot should also make use of an inactive user template. There's no harm in labeling inactive users; in fact, it would be downright helpful. System of closing user accounts at request of the user and also closing accounts inactive for two years: Support, the idea is to create a system a system where users could close their accounts like nearly every other website has. This system would also apply to accounts marked as dormant (inactive for two or more years). The user pages would still exist, but the user accounts would either be blocked from editing or blocked from logging in entirely. GO-PCHS-NJROTC (talk) 01:28, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Hi all,

On a completely different note to any of my other recent proposals, I've always found it more than a bit odd that the Userboxes describing which language/s a user knows are written in the language itself, rather than in English.

This would seem to undermine the point somewhat, IMHO, as I thought the idea was to enable people to find users who could translate materials. If someone doesn't speak the language, as they clearly don't if they're looking for a translator, how do they make sense of the userboxes?

And while it may be 'common knowledge' what Francais, Espanol and Deutsch mean (although I'm not sure why one would want to *assume* this), such is certainly not the case for more obscure languages (some userboxes are even written in the native alphabet, which makes them completely unintelligible to English-only users). Cheers Jonathanmills (talk) 15:11, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

They all have links to the relevant language article, so this shouldn't be much of a problem. And Babel isn't really to help find translators: that's what WP:Translation and WP:Translators available are for. Algebraist 15:42, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Agreed, they're not really for finding translators, they're for seeing if you can talk to that user in a language you're more familiar with than English (or, that they are more familiar with, if you're feeling generous). --Tango (talk) 16:09, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

In any case, surely if you really wanted to use them to find translators you're not going to be searching user by user to see if they have the language you want. Instead you're going to use Category:Wikipedians by language. So let's say you're looking for people speaking Kazakh language you look at Category:User kk where it not only tells you they speaking Kazahk but more importantly you can easily find the small number of users who speak it rather then having to search probably thousands and thousands of users to find one who speaks Kazahk Nil Einne (talk) 04:36, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, that's a very good point! I think I was led astray by thinking Babel was about translation. Thanks to all for your feedback. Jonathanmills (talk) 13:22, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Go for it! This is the English Wikipedia, so everything should be written in English in my opinion, including Babel boxes. GO-PCHS-NJROTC (talk) 01:49, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

I have made a new proposal regarding images here Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#New_proposal_on_images - I would appreciate any comments, suggestions, advice etc. Thanks Gustav von Humpelschmumpel (talk) 20:48, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia pages use the term "watchlist" for two very different things:

• The list of pages being watched
• The list of edits that have been just been done to the pages being watched

I propose that the first be called the "watchlist", as is the case now, and the second be consistently called the "watchlist report". Consider how the "Watchlist" tab in "my preferences" should read (these are six options, each with a checkbox in front of it):

• Hide my edits from the watchlist report
• Hide bot edits from the watchlist report
• Hide minor edits from my watchlist report
• Add pages I create to my watchlist
• Add pages I edit to my watchlist
• Add pages I move to my watchlist

Now remove the word "report" from the first three items. Much more confusing, yes? But that's the way it reads now (note the attempt to make a distinction by saying "the watchlist" rather than "my watchlist"; very subtle). Similarly, Special:Watchlist generates something called "My watchlist", but it should really be called "My watchlist report" (or just "Watchlist report"). -- John Broughton (♫♫) 21:38, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

I never considered it ambiguous, as the first three options refer to types of edits, the latter three refer to auto-add conditions, and they can't be reasonably thought of the other way around. However, if this is a common misunderstanding, I'd support rephrasing the first three to "from watched changes", since that's how the watchlist itself distinguishes Special:Watchlist from its /edit and /edit/raw versions. --erachima talk 00:18, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

As yes, "watched changes". Somehow I think "display watchlist report" is more understandable than "display watched changes". But at least we agree that there is are inconsistencies in what things are called. -- John Broughton (♫♫) 02:27, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Consensus is being tested concerning the proposal to establish a directorate (possibly two of the regular reviewers) as part of a program to improve the FLC process. Input is welcome. Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates#Should we have a FL director.3F Tony (talk) 12:13, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Elections underway there. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:59, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Copied from Wikipedia:Village pump (policy). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:31, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure I put this in the right place, but I still get very confused on this site even after a year. It might even be here, but I haven't seen anything so far.

I have seen numerous comments in the Help Desk archives about how newbies are so intimidated by the various rules here. So many people create their first article unaware that the article is likely to be deleted. I know that happened to me on one of my first articles, but it was merely a redirect, and I was able to access the history once I knew how and restore some of my text when someone else recreated the article. In my case, I was to find few sources for this article other than those that made it sound like advertising (mainly the official web site of the business).

In another case, I felt intimidated because I felt a certain person needed a biography on here, but I knew the rules were even stricter for biographies than those for other articles. I asked what to do on the Help Desk and was told to create the article in my user space, and what the article should be called so it would go there. I did that and received approval several weeks later (from the person who had helped me) to move the content to the main space. On other occasions, I have written stub articles and realized, before submitting them, that I had no option other than to rename the article using the rule I was taught in order to put it in user space. To this day, I don't think I have made the articles good enough not to be deleted. I just can't find the information or what Wikipedia would consider really good sources.

So this brings up the possibility: what if, instead of just "save page" for creating a new article, we also have some way to move to userspace, so the article can be reviewed before moving to main space? I didn't know about user space for a long time.Vchimpanzee · talk · contributions · 15:20, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

One option, when an editor finds an article in mainspace (article space), is to "userfy" it - to move it to a (new) personal page of the editor who created it. Details are at Wikipedia:Userfication.

As for the issue of when something is "good enough", if you look at the "Quality" topic in the editor's index, you'll find a number of pages that discuss what a good article looks like, and how to improve articles. You'll also find advice at the "New articles" topic of the index.

Finally, I suggest that if you're unsure about moving an article from user space to mainspace, because of quality concerns or reliable sources (for which see WP:RS, by the way), you can ask another editor to take a look. Some places to ask include the help desk, the drawing board, and editor assistance. -- John Broughton (♫♫) 16:25, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks; my question is for those who are so new they are not even aware of "user space"--on the page where they "save page," I'm saying show them that this is an option along with some statement that most new articles get deleted.Vchimpanzee · talk · contributions · 19:43, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

FA symbols at them top of the page informs the community of Wikipedia's best work. I think a GA symbol at the top of the page (like the FA star) would be a good idea. It would infirm the community and readers of what our good work is, and provide a link to the GA page (like the FA star does for the FA page). Good idea? STORMTRACKER 94 ^{Go Irish!} 14:28, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Straw poll

Support

1. Support Kevin Baas^talk 19:08, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
2. Support: Considering the fact that we have ugly banners at the top of almost every article that has some reference issues - I guess a little positive info in the form of a small icon is more than appropriate - especially since we are spending so much effort in reviewing and promoting the GA articles. Arman ^(Talk) 04:14, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
3. I have wondered about this for a long time. Zginder 2008-04-24T14:30Z (UTC)
4. Support A community-ranked article (FA and GA; as opposed to A- or B-, which are usually individual-ranked or ranked by a Wikiproject) should have its status listed on the upper right corner. --Philosopher ^{Let us reason together.} 08:13, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
5. Support It's a good idea, and might generate more interest in pushing GA articles up to FA. Doc Tropics 03:15, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
6. Strong support as has already been mentioned perhaps it will motivate people to push the articles to featureship --Hadseys Chat_Contribs 15:23, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
7. Support Sure, why not? GO-PCHS-NJROTC (talk) 19:48, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
8. Weak Support per my comments at GA talk. Majoreditor (talk) 21:35, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

This poll is taking place on another page. Please vote there instead. Kevin Baas^talk

Oppose

1. Oppose This would be completely useless. Then, we would need to put the Stub, Start, B, and A up there. The FA star signifies a highly-encyclopediac article, whereas GA is just "Good". Juliancolton ^{Tropical Cyclone} 17:01, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

   Why would we need to put the Stub, Start, B, and A up there? I don't see why we would need to do this, or what good it would do. Kevin Baas^talk 19:08, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

   FA is supposed to be an example of the best work in Wikipedia. Why go around showing what our "Meh, I guess it's OK" work is? And because A is higher than GA, we would for sure need to add that. Juliancolton ^{Tropical Cyclone} 19:19, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

   "GA" isn't "Meh, I guess it's OK" work, it's "good" work, hence the "good" in "good article". And although I don't think the reader would be particularly interested in knowing what our "Meh, I guess it's OK" work was, I could see them being interested in what our "good" work was. And from the point of viewer of the editor, it provides a reward for good work - it provides an added incentive for improving article quality.

   If A is higher than GA, then every A article is also a GA article, thus "GA" would be sufficient; I don't see why we would need to be more precise than that for something like this. My point with the question was that it seemed to me that you were presenting a false dilemma. Kevin Baas^talk 19:31, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

   I just don't think it is needed. You can have your opinion, and I don't feel that I have to explain every last reason for my opposing. This has been proposed plenty of times in the past, and every time it gets denied. Juliancolton ^{Tropical Cyclone} 19:52, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

   Remember we are trying to reach consensus, not to vote. As such, simply saying I oppose/I don't like it, without explaining why, is of limited use to the discussion Nil Einne (talk) 06:33, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

2. "Good" isn't good enough to let the readers know that it is merely "good". =) Malinaccier Public (talk) 16:57, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

This poll is taking place on another page. Please vote there instead. Kevin Baas^talk

Neutral

This poll is taking place on another page. You may, however, be ambivalent on the issue wherever you wish.

Voting is evil

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