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Is this article in Commentary magazine reliable for the idea that the UN failed to condemn a Lebanese army attack on a Palestinian refugee camp? I believe it is op-ed rather than a news report. This is in Israel, Palestine and the United Nations. There is another Commentary article cited in that article, but that is by Anne Bayefsky, a scholar and activist, so perhaps counts as a notable viewpoint. Itsmejudith (talk) 18:13, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

The web site has editorial oversight so its not a blog but a magazine of sorts, but it states that it consists of a collection of editorials. Therefore I would call it a reliable editorial with limited usage and should be used with caution, only if nothing better is available and only with an attribution, letting the reader know it is an editorial.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 18:39, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

I think it's a bit more than a "magazine of sorts", a regular political magazine, but carrying commentary rather than news. Which is true of most political magazines, actually. Thanks, will try to find better source. Itsmejudith (talk) 18:52, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

It is, as you have identified, an opinion piece and not a news report. Commentary is of course, a real magazine that's been around for over 65 years. It does have editorial review, and a political POV that dramatically shifted 40 some years ago, but I would regard it as a reliable source for reporting the opinions of its authors and editors. I would be inclined to allow the source, with attribution to the author. This is one instance where one could verify with a bit of digging the accuracy or inaccuracy of the factual claim by checking primary sources. If those sources confirmed that the claim was factually true, I'd then be inclined to remove the attribution. Fladrif (talk) 19:10, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

This particular article completely contradicts UN statements and also seems to support an extremist group. I thought perhaps the problem would be that the UN Security Council hadn't condemned the attacks within a particular timescale so wouldn't be reliable for whether it had done so since. But actually the UNSC did condemn the attacks (on civilians) at the time, but blamed an al-Qaeda affiliated group more than the Lebanese army. Itsmejudith (talk) 19:26, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

The November 3, 1948 front page of the Chicago Tribune cannot be cited as a reliable source that Dewey actually beat Truman. There were in fact UN Security Council resolutions condemning the fighting at the Nahr el-Bared refugee camp in 2007 well prior to the article, and decrying civilian casualties caused by either side in the fighting. IMJ is correct - apart from the admonition to all sides that they are obligated to avoid civilian casualties, the resolutions blamed Fatah al-Islam for violating Lebanon's soverignty, and recognized Lebanon's right to deal with Fatah al-Islam. The most that the Commentary article might be sited for is the opinion of the author that the UN should have condemned the Lebanese army (instead? As well?), but not for the contra-factual assertion that there was no condemnation of the fighting at the refugee camp. Fladrif (talk) 20:28, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

I am the editor who inserted this Commentary Magazine source described above. My comments on the above discussion:

• I was not informed nor invited, neither by ItsMeJudith nor by this noticeboard, of this discussion. I find this very rude. As I write this, I am fuming.
• WP:RS states When taking information from opinion pieces, the identity of the author may be a strong factor in determining reliability. The opinions of specialists and recognized experts are more likely to be reliable and to reflect a significant viewpoint than the opinions of others. The author, Khaled Abu Toameh, is a senior, award-winning writer on the topic of Israeli-Palestinian relations, published in a variety of mainstream media.
• Fladrif, what you call a "UNSC resolution" is in fact a press release by the US delegate to the UNSC. Hum.
• Fladrif and ItsmeJudith, did you actually read Toameh's article? In the first paragraph, he clearly blames the UN for not condemning (i.e. not voting resolutions) the destruction of the camp by the Lebanese army. If the paragraph was too long for you, he neatly summarized it in the title, "Silence on Nahr al-Bared". I use it as a source for the following statement: "The UN has not condemned Lebanon for this attack." Please explain where I erred.
• This discussion should be held in Talk:Israel, Palestine, and the United Nations, not here where it is conveniently hidden from the scrutiny of the editors of this article. I copy & pasted the whole thing there to correct this situation. Emmanuelm (talk) 05:47, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

• You were informed by IMJ that the matter was at RSN, within a few minutes of this being posted, at the talkpage
• The Commentary piece is demonstrably false with respect to the underlying facts, or more charitably, grossly misleading. It states, as if it were a fact:

For the past three months, a Palestinian refugee camp in the Middle East has been under attack, resulting in the death of hundreds of people and the displacement of nearly half of the camp’s 40,000 residents. Yet the United Nations Security Council has not held an emergency session to condemn the attack. Nor have the governments of France and Britain issued statements condemning the “atrocities” against the Palestinian refugees in the Nahr al-Bared camp in northern Lebanon. :

and then goes on to state the author's opinion:

For those who may wonder why there is no public outcry, the answer is simple. The army that is attacking the camp with heavy artillery and helicopter warships is not the IDF. It’s an Arab army—the Lebanese Army.

The author's opinion may or may not be notable, but as the old saying goes, "Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but no-one is entitled to their own facts" The fighting at the refugee camp was in fact addressed by the UN and the UNSC months before his piece was published, and it is grossly misleading to state that the UN didn't condemn the Lebanese Army, when it in fact condemned the other side, recognized the right of Lebanon to deal with Fatah al-Islam, and addressed the obligation of both sides to avoid civilian casualties. This piece cannot be used as a reliable source for anything other than the author's opinion, and is being grossly misused in the Wikipedia article in which it is cited as a source. This is particuarly eggregious given the context in which it is being misued - in a section cataloging complaints that the UN isn't sufficiently attentive to the rights of Palestinian refugees. Fladrif (talk) 15:42, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

Fladrif, the factual accuracy of the source can be checked against the UNRWA report on the same incident, also used as a source for my text. About your assertion that "The fighting at the refugee camp was in fact addressed by the UN and the UNSC months before his piece was published", here are all the 2007 UNSC resolutions; show me. As for your statement that "This piece cannot be used as a reliable source for anything other than the author's opinion", that's exactly what it is used for, as per WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV. Finally, this debate belongs in Talk:Israel, Palestine, and the United Nations, not here. If you want to continue, come visit us. Emmanuelm (talk) 20:30, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Hi there. There have been several discussions on what to do when two (or more) reliable sources conflict but I was unable to find any policy or guideline that actually mentions this. As such, I created Wikipedia:Conflicting sources as an essay to summarize what I think is common consensus (but which many users probably do not know). Any help with this would be appreciated. Oh, and if there is a policy or guideline or essay that covers this, then please point me to it and {{trout}} me if desired. Regards SoWhy 14:54, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

While I agree with your comments generally/in principle, I think that as written they open the door for considerable mischief-making and legitimate confusion. What should we do when a generally reliable source circulates information that can with reasonable certainty be shown to be false? A few years ago, someone made a point by inserting a deliberate falsification into the article on a writer or academic who had just died, then pointing out how many news organizations had picked up the misinformation and used it in published obituaries. Quite recently, the New York Times included a report of a turning point in comedian Charlie Callas's career -- only to retract it a few days later, stating plainly that the event described in its original obit had never happened. It's unlikely that every news publisher which picked up the story through the Times published a similar correction. There's a determined hoaxster/publicist at work trying to shave a decade of actress Chase Masterson's age; and although we've (for the moment) managed to expunge his work from Wikipedia, it survived long enough to be scraped and replicated at thousands of other sites. Sometimes reliable sources just get things demonstrably wrong, and we shouldn't perpetuate their errors in such cases. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 16:23, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure the essay would promote any such things. For instance it is explicit about scenarios like the NYT incident you mention - "In most cases, when two (or more) reliable sources conflict, one (or more) of those sources can be demonstrated to be unreliable in this case. For example, one source might specifically contradict the other, mentioning that their information is incorrect. In these cases, the latter source can be assumed reliable for this particular case." You have to ask yourself how we demonstrate that a reliable source is wrong. We do so by way of other reliable sources. Again, that is explicitly covered. We don't demonstrate that a source is wrong by our own say so anyway. That would be original research. So I don't see a problem. I raised one issue on the talk page of the essay about BLP, and instances when other policies would override the basic procedure. That said, I wonder if the essay is even necessary since the basic procedure is understood by way of existing policies. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 16:32, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

The other relevant policy is WP:Neutral point of view. Pay attention to the section about WP:Undue weight. Blueboar (talk) 17:06, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

"For example, one source might specifically contradict the other, mentioning that their information is incorrect. In these cases, the latter source can be assumed reliable for this particular case." No, sorry, the second source declaring victory doesn't automatically make it the correct one. I applaud what the essay is trying to accomplish, but this language will cause more problems than it solves. Jonathanwallace (talk) 18:00, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

I contribute to East Midland MPs - a keen marginal battleground and the Politics Show is one of the best ways of seeing a new MP, in this case Nicky Morgan (politician) in action. I simply don't have another source comparable in quality.
Betty Logan came up with the excellent idea that I could include a transcript on the talk page which I've done. I also have a 1.6Mb MP3 recording which I could email or whatever.
Betty suggested I should ask a couple of volunteers to verify it -and to test people's reaction. I am strongly in favour of sources being easily checkable, particularly for WP:BLP.
JRPG (talk) 18:57, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

An editor and I are in disagreement about the relevance of some sourced material. The matter involves the Al-Shabaab group of Islamist militants that the UN reported some time ago as being linked to one man named Mohamed Said Atom (who is on both UN & US security watchlists and variously described as a "warlord" or "terrorist"). Recent reports from the International Strategic Studies Association have linked Al-Shabaab with the administration of the secessionist Somaliland region in northwestern Somalia, and the neighboring autonomous Puntland region has also formally accused the Somaliland authorities of providing Atom with a safe haven in their region. The present content dispute involves the paragraph below, which the user believes to be "irrelevant" and "overly long" and which he has consequently attempted to remove large parts of (specifically, the parts that are unflattering to the Somaliland region):

In addition, Garowe Online reported in October that Mohamed Said Atom, an arms-smuggler believed to be allied with Al-Shabaab and who is on U.S. and U.N. security watch-lists, was hiding out in Somaliland after being pursued by the neighboring Puntland region's authorities for his role in targeted assassination attempts against Puntland officials as well as bomb plots.¹² Several of Atom's followers were also reportedly receiving medical attention in the region, after having been wounded in a counter-terrorism raid in the Galgala hills by Puntland security personnel.¹ According to Puntland government documents, the Somaliland region's Riyale government in 2006 both financed and offered military assistance to Atom's men as part of a campaign to destabilize the autonomous territory via proxy agents and to distract attention away from the Somaliland government's own attempts at occupying the disputed Sool province. The Puntland Intelligence Agency (PIA), a covert organization supported and trained by U.S. counter-terrorism agencies based in Djibouti, also indicated that over 70 salaried Somaliland soldiers had fought alongside Atom's militiamen during the Galgala operation, including one known Somaliland intelligence official who died in the ensuing battle.²³ In January 2011, the Puntland government issued a press release accusing the incumbent Somaliland administration of providing a safe haven for Atom and of attempting to revive remnants of his militia.⁴ The Somaliland authorities, which had earlier described Atom as a "terrorist",⁵ strenuously denied all of the charges, dismissing them as "baseless" and intended to divert attention away from Puntland's attempt to establish what it described as a "large army".⁶ In January 2011, the Hargeisa-based broadsheet Haatuf also published an interview wherein a representative of Atom's denied that his group was affiliated with Al-Shabaab and requested military assistance from the Somaliland administration.⁵

I would like to know if the administrators here believe the material above indeed qualifies as reliable for use on Wikipedia. I have consulted WP:VER, WP:BURDEN and WP:CRV, and they all indicate that as long as the material is on topic and reliably sourced, it is indeed admissible. Please advise. Middayexpress (talk) 20:51, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

According to the page, Atom's allegiance to Al-Shabaab dates to July 2010. If there are no sources indicating an earlier date, I think his visits and ties to Somaliland prior to that date are indeed irrelevant to this article. (I'm not an administrator BTW, 'just' a peer.) --Rontombontom (talk) 21:03, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

It looks at least superficially that Garowe Online is a real news organization, as its reports are picked up by the BBC and UPI (though I have my doubts about UPI being a real news organization itself nowadays - but that's another issue). I'm not so sure about Somailanpress.com. It doesn't appear that its reports are picked up by other news agencies, so I would take that to mean that it hasn't developed a reputation as an accurate news source as yet, and probably shouldn't be used. On balance, I'd say that Garowe Online could be used as a RS, though you should not use the editorial as a source, and that Somalilandpress.com is not a reliable source. I'm not commenting on whether or not the text above accurately reflects the sources or not. Fladrif (talk) 21:14, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

Middayexpress, have you notified the other editors involved in this dispute of the presence of this discussion by linking them to it? I feel like we've had this discussion before: 3. You can't post your position here, and not give others involved in the dispute the chance to voice their positions.

After looking through the discussion on the talk page, Middayexpress has rather misrepresented the situation. The dispute isn't over wheter or not this material is admissible. Both editors agree that the material is sourced. The reliability of the sources hasn't been called into question. The dispute is over wheter the content is relavant to the article or not. I'm not sure what the point of bringing this to the RS noticeboard is. TDL (talk) 21:21, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

Atom's allegiance to Al-Shabaab has been reported for several years. The New York Times even quoted him a few months back as saying that he and his men "are members of the Shabab" 4 (though he later back-tracked on this when Puntland began cracking down on his militia), and he has been indentified by the UN as an Al-Shabaab operative 5. Middayexpress (talk) 22:59, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

If it is true that Atom's allegiance to Al-Shabaab has been reported for several years, you need to add more sources in support. The one source in the passage you quoted and the additional two sources from August 2010 you link to above don't support such a claim. The New York Times article with the "members of Shabab" quote writes about "a recently announced alliance between an insurgent commander and Shabab militants". For the UN's claims, use the original source, which is from April 2010, and doesn't identify Atom as a Shabaab operative, merely reports the existence of such claims, without firmig it up: "According to some information, ATOM is aligned with al-Shabaab and may receive instructions from al-Shabaab leader Fu'aad Mohamed Khalaf." That's rather tentative and without a defined time perod. --Rontombontom (talk) 11:28, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

The New York Times's actual July 29, 2010, report on the "members of Shabab" proclamation is here, and it reports it as a new development and an alliance with unclear substance (it doesn't mention the earlier UN report). I couldn't find an earlier mention of ties on Garowe Online. --Rontombontom (talk) 12:09, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the links and advice. Just so it's clear, the actual passage doesn't claim that Atom has been allied with Al-Shabaab for several years; this is something I just mentioned here offhand. The UN Security Council link describes Atom's role in the group as that of an arms smuggler who takes orders from Shabaab's command: "Atom has been identified as one of the principal suppliers of arms and ammunition for al-Shabaab operations in the Puntland region... According to some information, Atom is aligned with al-Shabaab and may receive instructions from al-Shabaab leader Fu'aad Mohamed Khalaf" 6. The "some information" is probably at least in part a reference to an earlier UN report from the month before 7. This is in addition to the U.S. government's Executive Order 13536, which identifies Atom, among others, as an Al-Shabaab operative & places sanctions on him 8. Middayexpress (talk) 20:44, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

"Atom's role in the group as that of an arms smuggler who takes orders from Shabaab's command" is not a correct characterisation of the quoted part: an arms smuggler is not necessarily an integral part of an organisation he supplies, and I indicated that the second part was tentative. I couldn't find a March UN report on the UN site, the allAfrica site article from July is probably in error and refers to the April report. The actual US government executive order 13536, which is here, is not "in addition", as it is the US implementation of the UN resolution issued on the same day as SC/9904, and merely lists the persons and one organisation under the measures, without specifying who they are and why they are sanctioned. The document you link to, a US Congressional Research Service report, mentions those sanctioned by E.O. 13536 in a footnote, characterising Atom as "militia leader and alleged Al Shabaab arms supplier", relativising even the arms supplier part.

Regarding your offhand several years figure, I understood that it is not in the quoted passage but your claim, however, it is relevant to my observation that Atom's however well-sourced pre-2010 exploits in Somaliland are probably irrelevant to the Al-Shabaab article, if no source explicitly supports his Al-Shabaab allegiance in that period. --Rontombontom (talk) 00:27, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

Thanks again for the links and comments. Although I'm told that this isn't the board to sort out issues of relevance, Atom's pre-2010 exploits in Somaliland aren't mentioned in the passage. What is mentioned is the Somaliland region's then government's alleged support of him. Also, the reference to a UN report released the month prior in March accusing Atom of being allied with Al-Shabaab is not an error; it was issued by the UN Monitoring Group (c.f. 9). Cheers, Middayexpress (talk)

Indeed this is the board to sort out the reliability of sources for the purpose they are used. Your latest link goes to a short October 2010 article in the Economist Intelligence Unit, which mentions the arms smuggling for Al-Shabaab only. The EIU is generally an RS, so as UN reports are public and uploaded on the UN site, I checked again, and found it listed on the Somalia and Eritrea monitoring group reports page, but with an apparently malformed link, which may be the reason a general search didn't find it. After some trickery I found a working link for S/2010/91. I quote below all passages on connections between Atom and Al-Shabaab.

Page 24, point 67, is about the arms smuggling (which the UN, unlike the CRS, treats as a definite claim): "The Monitoring Group has received credible information indicating that Eritrea continues to send arms to Somalia in small vessels via the northern Somali port of Laasqoray for onward shipment to Shabaab forces in southern Somalia by Mohamed Sa’iid Atom". Arms smuggling is repeated on page 48, in point 160: "Al-Shabaab also receives weapons via Mohamed Sa’iid “Atom” in Puntland, who trans-ships supplies southwards via Gaalkacyo."

Page 45 (all of which deals with Atom), point 147, dates the start of closer ties (which is not the same as being part of) to 2009: "Although he remains essentially a Warsengeli clan warlord, Atom reportedly calls his militia the “Eastern Sanaag Mujahidicen” and has strengthened ties with Al-Shabaab during the course of 2009. A significant number of non-Warsengeli militia are reported to have recently joined his group." ... "Numerous sources indicate that there are several non-Somali instructors at the Galgala camp, and according to eyewitness reports delegations from southern Al-Shabaab groups have been regular visitors."

The report doesn't contain the claim of Atom being under the command of Fu'aad Mohamed Khalaf, that allegation probably arrived in the month until the Security Council decision.

I note that Page 46 of the report details some operations and connections of Al-Shabaab in Somaliland dating as far back as 2003, unrelated to Atom, which you could use in that section of the Al-Shabaab article. I hope the these sources will help in the revision of Al-Shabaab#Somaliland in a way that stays on focus and pleases all editors of the page. --Rontombontom (talk) 10:22, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

Impressive detective work! I've searched for that paper myself but was unable to find it. The passage in the Shabaab article states that Atom is an arms-smuggler believed to be allied with the group; this paper, among others, confirms that. Those early Shabaab links to Somaliland, however, are definitely a surprise. Middayexpress (talk) 21:53, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

That's just what I had thought. Garoweonline is a reliable source that even the UN references 10. Somalilandpress is a pro-secessionist website; the other editor added it ostensibly to reference the Somaliland administration's denials of impropriety. Middayexpress (talk) 22:59, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

Note that "TDL" above is one of a group of accounts that are open supporters of Somaliland's secession. Hence, why he of course takes exception to the material above. For the record, I also not once but twice indicated on the article's talk page that I would be seeking clarification from admins. Middayexpress (talk) 22:44, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

Do you mind explaining where I took exception to the material above? I never voiced an opinion on whether the content belonges in the article or not. I only pointed out that you were missrepresenting Copper's argument, and that this wasn't the appropriate place for such a discussion.

You placed a vague note on the talk page about your intentions to seek the advice of an admin. But you never stated that there was discussion going on at RS/N. As you were warned previously, it's proper to notify all involved editors with a link to the discussion when you are reporting a dispute.

As for your repeated personal attacks about me being an open supporter of Somalialand, either take it to AN/I or drop it. TDL (talk) 02:38, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

That's because there wasn't an RS/N discussion going on when I twice indicated on the article's talk page that I would seek clarification from admins. And it was purely out of courtesy too that I even mentioned this; RS/N's instruction boxes above do not require editor notification. They do, however, specify that this is not the place to carry on content disputes. Middayexpress (talk) 20:44, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

I'm the other editor in the dispute. This is not a dispute over reliable sources, so I'm puzzled as to why it has been posted here. I proposed a shorter, more readable version of this paragraph using all the same sources. Middayexpress objected to my omitting some information that I thought added nothing to the article (eg that the Puntland Intelligence Agency is "a covert organization supported and trained by U.S. counter-terrorism agencies based in Djibouti"). The dispute is over which version of the paragraph is better. I'd encourage any interested parties to visit Talk:Al-Shabaab#Somaliland summary. --Copper button 21:22, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

Yes, Reliability and Relevance are distinctly different issues. Material can be cited to a reliable source and still be irrelevant. This sounds like the sort of dispute that should be moved over to the NPOV noticeboard... as it relates more to WP:UNDUE than WP:IRS. Blueboar (talk) 21:28, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

Actually, Copper quite plainly described the material as unreliable and in his very first post on the article's page to boot. Whatever the case, the administrator comments are appreciated. Middayexpress (talk) 22:44, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

Glad we could help (although for the sake of clarity, most of us who reply on this page are not admins... just fellow editors who care about reliability and know the guideline and related policies well). Blueboar (talk) 01:39, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Understood, and thanks again. Middayexpress (talk) 20:44, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

the magicbox - the site seems to be a news aggregator & translation + sales charts. There is no about page, just contact. They do say where their sales charts come from and do seem to have ongoing sales charts from Media Create (the premiere authority for these sales figures) and several charts from Famitsu (also well regarded source). I'm wanting to know if they'd be viable as a good site since its in English and because Media Create continually refreshes their lists on a weekly basis and the only way to get access to their backlog (that isn't one of the few exceptions archive.org has) is limited to businesses and organization and then only at a hefty price (several hundred USD per book).

Note, while they do seem to regularly get data from media create, Famitsu and others, they do not specifically credit Famitsu or Media Create for their yearly charts, although by looking through it, it appears they just essentially do what we allow with WP:CALC and compile them like that for those special charts.陣内_Jinnai 05:22, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

On the face of it, this source seems acceptable. But see the guidelines at the top of this page. Specifically, you're asked to note the article in which it is being used and the statement in the article that the source is supporting. Is there any controversy surrounding this source? TimidGuy (talk) 11:37, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

It's being used for that sales data, specifically one of those derived charts. at Dragon Quest, but the question was raised at WT:VG/S to see if it could be a RS for the charts whether derived or not.陣内_Jinnai 16:17, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Seems to me that it's a good source for this information. TimidGuy (talk) 11:39, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

I believe that the name of this children's game is widely misunderstood. Learning the Czech language, I found that they have adapted the English word "hop" colloquially to mean a small jump. The word "jump" itself in Czech is "skoč," pronounced roughly as "scotch." So my belief is that the childrens' jumping game was brought to America by slavic immigrants, as "Hop-skoč".

Gene Deitch genedeitch@yahoo.com

Thanks, Gene. You may be correct. If we were to use this information in Wikipedia, we would need a published source that states this. We're not allowed to put original research in the encyclopedia — everything must come from published sources. TimidGuy (talk) 11:56, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

In addition, the current Hopscotch article's claim about the origins of the game name in England, not America, is sufficiently sourced. Furthermore, 'hop' in that meaning is not unique to English among Germanic languages, so it may have came to Czech from another source than English. --Rontombontom (talk) 14:24, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

I know that scribd.com has often come up in discussions here. There is currently an ongoing discussion among a group of admins who maintain Wikimedia:Spam-blacklist, regarding the possibility of blacklisting most or all of scribd. See the discussion at MediaWiki_talk:Spam-blacklist#Proliferation of scribd links in the blacklist. Perhaps a regular contributor to RSN could chime in there, not to "vote" but rather to describe the history and sentiment toward scribd that has transpired on RSN. ~Amatulić (talk) 18:22, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

The page on Lord Sri Akshunna / Akshunnath Mahaprabhu is totally nonsense, Please Please dear moderators / editors, check with an expert on religion in South Asia, this whole article is someones self aggrandizing blather, none of the figures mentioned exist at all in any tangible way past or present and the 2 external links are to Hindu sites most definitely not affiliated in any way with the article. Hindu religion is extremely big but if you do a bit of research even just with google you will find that this page does a disservice to everyone. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.198.66.6 (talk • contribs)

• If you want the page Akshunnanath Mahaprabhu deleted, I recommend that you register an account on Wikipedia. This way, you will be able to complete the process of nominating the page for deletion as described at WP:AFDHOWTO. (IP users can't complete the process themselves.) Otherwise, I suggest posting at Wikipedia talk:Hinduism-related topics notice board or Wikipedia talk:Noticeboard for India-related topics and seeing if someone there will nominate the page on your behalf. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 06:44, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

With Wikipedia’s high standards would this website’s poll count as an approved reference?

Here’s the link. I noticed Wikipedia at least uses behindthevoiceactors.com to reference what roles an actor did.

But, would the largely debated topic of Sonic the Hedgehog truly be acceptable? I already contacted BTVA and they confirmed that the current poll results are accurate.

But, they also said that a forum on another website did a campaign to bolster votes for a particular actor. Would that also affect its usability?

Thank you for your time, reader. Viceroy kai (talk) 16:19, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

Reference for what? On-line polls are never reliable sources. The "author" of this poll posted it under a pseudonym. It looks entirely like reader-supplied content. This cannot be used as a source in a Wikipedia article. Fladrif (talk) 17:42, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

"Reference for what?" For example: If someone were to post these poll results on an actor’s wiki page and used BTVA as reference. I assume it would then be promptly removed, right? Viceroy kai (talk) 05:18, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps not promptly. But eventually it would be removed, as soon as someone with an understanding of WP:RS noticed. Fladrif (talk) 17:02, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

This is not a WP:RS, and I cannot imagine what it could be used for in any Wikipedia article. Jayjg ^(talk) 18:42, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

I agree, and it should be removed where ever it is. Tried to do so, but it's not working well. (Even though I have the edit toolbar disabled it is now popping up again and causing my browser to crawl to a halt whenever I try to edit anything.) DreamGuy (talk) 16:31, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Moved from Help Desk

Can someone else please take a look at this edit. I strongly doubt the reference added is a reliable source and therefore should not be used in this context. I would normally revert this myself right away, but considering the extreme reaction I received from Archiver of Records (talk · contribs) last time I reverted one of his edits, I don't really want to provoke him into personally attacking me again if there is doubt about the source's unreliability. Don't get me wrong here; I'm quite happy to take him on again, but just want to be sure the community agrees the source is not reliable. Astronaut (talk) 09:40, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

You are correct. Fanfiction.net is a user generated site, and the material linked even says that it is an improvement on the plot of the movie, not a straight summary. Not a reliable source, and completely un-needed in a plot summary which can be verified by watching the movie anyway. So possibly WP:SPAM to get the site linked on Wikipedia.Jonathanwallace (talk) 11:54, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

I am surprised anyone would even try to use Fanfiction.net as a source. Imdb maybe but not Fanfiction.net. I agree with the WP:SPAM assessment.--BruceGrubb (talk) 12:21, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Is In the name of terrorism: presidents on political violence in the post-World. published by the State University of New York Press written by Carol Winkler a reliable source for the statement that "An estimated thirty three thousand people were killed in south Vietnam between 1965 and 1972 and a further fifty seven thousand abducted" Tentontunic (talk) 13:22, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Are you sure this is an RS question? Isn't there some sort of established convention for that article about not attributing deaths in war as "mass killings under..."? --FormerIP (talk) 13:44, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

State university presses are generally accepted as "reliable sources" under WP:RS. Collect (talk) 13:50, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

(ec)User Fifeloo has said the source is not reliable, and some of the editors are saying it does not meet the criteria of mass killing laid out be Valentino. No-one has said mass killings in war time can not be added to the article as yet. Tentontunic (talk) 13:52, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Except Benjamin Valentino's who's category of dispossessive mass killing we are reliant upon for the topic and scope of that article requires the state to be in control or responsible for the civilians they're killing. Arguing this in the context of the Republic of Vietnam would be difficult in the manner you're doing it. Fifelfoo (talk) 22:44, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

"Mass killing" is a technical sociological term with a specific definition arising out of Benjamin Valentino's work (an accepted scholarly expert on cross cultural causes of mass killing in the 20th century, and the analysis of demographics of mass death).

• Valentino's category of mass killing is defined as caused population losses of at least 50,000 in five years or fewer by the state responsible for the civillians.
• Valentino defines a further technical sociological term "dispossessive mass killing" and then proceeds to give an example of "dispossessive mass killing" in a communist kind, being the common dispossessive features of Soviet, Chinese and Khmer mass killings.
• The article Mass killings under Communist regimes is entirely dependent upon Valentino's definition and example for its existence, the body of the article filled out with Rummell's work, supposition about other mass killings, alternate terms for mass killings, examples of communist mass killings in detail found in Valentino and elsewhere.

Is Carol Winkler's work, a discourse analysis of US presidential media strategy, reliable to:

• Establish that 5000 people died at Hue
• Make a claim not found in the text that this was a "mass killing"
• Make a claim that this was a "dispossessive mass killing of the communist kind"

Carol's text does not appear to contain any information indicating that 50,000 people were killed in under five years at Hue, nor, that the Hue killings were part of a dispossessive strategy, nor that the PAVN/NFL were acting as a government (leading to a reasonable Synthesis). Can Carol's text be used to establish that the Hue killings were an element of a dispossessive mass killing of the communist kind? Is Carol an author reliable for cross cultural comparative demography and the causes of mass death? Fifelfoo (talk) 14:10, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

I am unsure why you are saying 50,000 people were killed in Hue. The source in question is for "An estimated thirty three thousand people were killed in south Vietnam between 1965 and 1972 and a further fifty seven thousand abducted" This refers to actions carried out by communist insurgents all over Southern Vietnam, not just Hue. The Hue source is not even being presented here. Tentontunic (talk) 14:28, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

(ec)Also, Valentino makes mention if these types of mass killings in Final solutions: mass killing and genocide in the twentieth century see p86. Tentontunic (talk) 14:57, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Unless Carol is a comparative theorist of causes of demographic losses; and proposes a theory of communist causes of comparative demographic losses; then the only relevant issue is "Does Carol describe a situation identical with Valentino's definition of dispossessive mass killing equivalent to his communist example." The numbers and time frame are not identical with Valentino's theory. Carol, a discourse analyst is unreliable for the historical analysis of the dispossessive nature of deaths in Vietnam. Carol is neither a historian of Vietnam, nor a demographic loss analyst. Her work is not reliable to sustain a claim that mass killing occurred in Vietnam, as "mass killing" isn't any old term, it is a defined construct. Fifelfoo (talk) 14:55, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Hi, could someone please take a look at Talk:Joseph Schenck#Birthplace question? This .ru website in question was also previously used (has since been reverted) as a source for some info in Marilyn Monroe. Any input on assessing this website as a reliable source would be really helpful. Thanks, Shearonink (talk) 17:42, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

I don't speak Russian, but based on the description given at the talk page, its not reliable. If you want to ask additional Russian speaking editors for help, you can find some here.Jonathanwallace (talk) 13:15, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Agora (film) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Aloha. I promised a new user that I would file a report requesting guidance from the regulars on this noticeboard about interpreting WP:SPS and the use of two potential (expert?) sources and how we can apply SPS to our article on Agora (film): we have two allegedly expert sources, Faith L. Justice and Tim O'Neil, both of whom maintain blogs—Historian's Notebook and Armarium Magnum respectively. Justice (and her blog) appears to meet the definition of an expert, in this instance a known, published expert on the topic of historical fiction1112 who has written an extensive, comprehensive three-part critical essay on the film, Agora.131415 My understanding is that we might be able to use selected portions of this essay carefully, if at all. Like Justice, O'Neill appears to be an expert on the subject as well, but more of an independent scholar,16 and like Justice, O'Neill has authored two comprehensive essays on the subject of the film.1718 Generally, I would be against using self-published sources altogether, but this is a somewhat unique situation, considering that critical essays on the film are hard to find. The film was all but panned in the U.S. due to what was perceived as its alleged "anti-Christian" bias, and received very limited distribution in theaters. For this reason, critical analysis, like the kind offered by Justice and O'Neill, may be important for developing the article. Viriditas (talk) 10:22, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

SPS can be used as primary sources for sourcing the person's opinion as I understand. Beyond that it comes down to whether someone's opinion is regarded as notable or not on this subject. If the person has been published in secondary sources in regards to the critical analysis of historical fiction, then there is a strong argument that their opinion is notable in this context i.e. critical analysis. However, if they start questioning historical accuarcy based on their own historical knowledge, then their opinion might not be notable in that regard if they are not published experts on that period of history. Beyond that we'd probably need to see each statement and the accompanying source. Betty Logan (talk) 12:12, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Betty, your feedback would suggest that Justice is acceptable, having been published on the topic of historical fiction, is that correct? It seems, therefore, that the question is O'Neil. Given that this is a controversial film, it might be a good idea, as Betty suggests, to look at the specific statement. (Which is also what the guidelines at the top of this page advise.) TimidGuy (talk) 12:31, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

WP:SPS says: " Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications." Although Justice seems to have read and absorbed everything out there on Hypatia, her novel about the era is self published, and I saw no evidence of third party publications confirming her expertise in this field. I found Timothy O'Neill described here as having an "academic background in medieval literature and ancient and medieval history", but his own blog profile describes him as a human resources manager in an Australian firm. Due to the common name, I can't confirm any prior scholarly publications at Google Books or Scholar (there is a Timothy O'Neill who wrote two books about ancient Ireland, but I assume our guy would have mentioned those in his blog profile if they were his). So regretfully, I think neither author passes WP:SPS for our purposes, though they both have done their homework and acquired a lot of knowledge about the subject matter. Jonathanwallace (talk) 13:08, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Agree with this summary. I saw a number of reviews in the Further reading section. Shouldn't they be drawn on for the main body of the article? Itsmejudith (talk) 14:33, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Over on the Weston Price article there is the following medical claim:

"Price was outspoken on the relationship between endodontic therapy and pulpless teeth and broader systemic disease, ideas derived from focal infection theory, and held that dental health - and consequently physical health - were heavily influenced by nutritional factors. These applications of focal infection theory fell out of favor in the 1930s and are not currently considered viable in the dental or medical communities. (Baumgartner, J. Craig; Siqueira, Jose F.; Sedgley, Christine M.; Kishen, Anil (2007), "7", Ingle's Endodontics (6 ed.), PMPH-USA, pp. 221–222, ISBN 978-1-55009-333-9)

The problem is that this claim is NOT supported by the majority of the reliable sources (see Wikipedia:NPOVN#Weston_Price_and_Focal_infection_theory and so I want to put in the following which IMHO better shows the state of affairs:

The dental part of focal infection fell out of favor in the late 1930s (Thomas J. Pallasch, DDS, MS, and Michael J. Wahl, DDS (2000) "The Focal Infection Theory: Appraisal and Reappraisal", Journal of the California Dental Association.) with a special 1951 issue of the Journal of the American Dental Association stating "Many Authorities who formally felt that focal infection was an important etiologic factor in systemic disease have become skeptical and now recommend less radical procedures in the treatment of such disorders."("An Evaluation of the Effect of Dental Focal Infection on Health" JADA 42:609-697 June 1951) though the idea never disappeared from the dental community.(Editorial. JAMA 1952; 150: 490.) (Bergenholtz, Gunnar; Preben Hørsted-Bindslev, Claes Reit (2009). Textbook of Endodontology. Wiley. pp. 135–136) While, recent discoveries have caused a cautious reevaluation of focal infection in dentistry ((2001) Fowler, Edward B "Periodontal disease and its association with systemic disease" Military Medicine (Jan 2001)) and there are studies on the quality of diet regarding oral health in adults (Bailey, RL (2004) "Persistent oral health problems associated with comorbidity and impaired diet quality in older adults". J Am Diet . Assnc. 104:1273.) these are independent of Weston Price's work.

I should mention the following "Additionally, recent evidence associating dental infections with atherosclerosis and other chronic diseases has also helped resurrect the focal infection theory." (Silverman, Sol; Lewis R. Eversole, Edmond L. Truelove (2002) "Essentials of oral medicine" PMPH usa; Page 159) Both Silverman and Baumgartner are now published by McGraw Hill who also publishes little gems such as:

"Homeopathy works best with chronic health problems and some acute health problems" Repetitive strain injuries McGraw Hill pg 179.

"Homeopathy works by treating the whole body, including body, mind, and spirit" ("Without ritalin: a natural approach to ADD" McGraw Hill pg 115).

"We have no idea if this is technically true, we still don't understand how Homeopathy works. There has been no good basic research into the mechanism of action of homeopathic medicine..." (Vogel, John H. K.; Mitchell Krucoff (2007) Integrative cardiology McGraw-Hill Medical pg 347)

Homeopathy works?!? SAY WHAT?!? Despite these red flags we are told by certain editors that the ONE reference by People's Medical Publishing House/McGraw Hill must superseed references both before and after by such reliable sources as the Journal of the California Dental Association, JADA, Wiley, Military Medicine, and J Am Diet . Assnc and even an earlier People's Medical Publishing House which is now also published by McGraw Hill simply because these other sources do not mention Price and yet we DO have a reliable source that does mention Price:

"The focal infection theory, supported by many including Dr. Price, has been attacked, debated, accepted, criticized, agreed upon, etc. but it has not been covered up." ((1994) Annals of dentistry: Volumes 53-54 New York Academy of Dentistry pg 42) Why is the word "rejected" not part of that list? The author of this piece states that Root Canal Cover-up Exposed "contains unsubstantiated statements, misunderstandings, and it would definitely have benefited from a better proofreading. Infected tissues/organs, such as teeth, can serve as a source of infection which can be transported, in the form of microorganisms..."

I must ask does pushing a clearly inaccurate reference in the light of so many others that say the exact opposite thing make sense per MEDRS?--BruceGrubb (talk) 06:51, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

A medical textbook is a reliable secondary source per Wikipedia:Identifying_reliable_sources_(medicine)#Books Fladrif (talk) 16:01, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

Clearly you didn't read the references. Bergenholtz, Gunnar; Preben Hørsted-Bindslev, Claes Reit (2009). Textbook of Endodontology. Wiley. pp. 135–136 states that "in spite of lack of scientific evidence the dental focal infection theory never died (O'Reilly, PR Claffey NW "A history of Oral Sepsis as a cause of disease" Periodontal 2000 1997; 13:121-48)(Pallashe TJ (2000) "The focal infection theory: appraisal and reappraisal" California Dental Association Journal 28: 194-200)" Wiley is a textbook!--BruceGrubb (talk) 09:57, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Your posts are very hard to read (see WP:TLDR). You asked if a medical textbook was a reliable source, got an answer that it was, came back to point out that it's a medical textbook. What is your question? Perhaps you're asking for resolution of a content dispute instead of reliability of sources. That's a different matter. If you'd shorten your posts, say what you want to cite and what source you want to use, it would be helpful. Perhaps reading some other inquiries here, to see how they're framed, will help you help us. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 10:03, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

I think I could support your revision. All of these sources appear to be reliable. Your point is really more related to WP:UNDUE. (There's a separate noticeboard for that — WP:NPOVN.) To be in accord with that policy, I do think it's appropriate, even though Price isn't specifically mentioned, to indicate there has been a reevaluation of focal infection theory. TimidGuy (talk) 11:35, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

It would help if editors would not speed read through what I post and say they can't understand it or post information that is already in the post because they are in too much of a hurry. If you go back to the top of this you will see that I referenced a thread at WP:NPOVN!

As I pointed out in that WP:NPOVN article the Mcgraw-hill website states Ingle's Endodontics (also a medical textbook I might add) is Only for sale in EMEA, Canada, Tailand. To put it as bluntly as possible a textbook that the publisher itself states is NOT to be sold in in the US and who also publishes books that claim homeopathy works despite no studies that support such a claim is being used to override known reliable sources such as the Journal of the California Dental Association, JADA, Wiley, Military Medicine, and Journal of the American Dietetic Association. Does this make a lick of sense? There is nothing to show that People's Medical Publishing House was reliable and just because McGraw-Hill picked up the rights to their works doesn't magically make them qualify under WP:RS which was my point even over at Wikipedia:NPOVN#Weston_Price_and_Focal_infection_theory.

My question to my fellow editors is can a textbook that even its own publisher will not allow to be sold in the US, publishes books that claim homeopathy works (including one form its medical division), and is contradicted by not only known WP:RS but by an earlier work by the very same publisher be considered a reliable source per MEDRS?--BruceGrubb (talk) 17:21, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

The premise of your question is false. This textbook is sold in the US. You've completely misunderstood and misinterpreted the publisher's disclaimer. That McGraw Hill imprint of Ingle's Endodontics (6th Ed) is only for sale in those countries because other publishers have the rights in the other countries. BC Decker has the distribution rights in the US. 19 This is a textbook that has been renowned for decades. It is unquestionably a reliable source under WP:MEDRS, and your continued arguments are starting to sound like WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT. As other editors have pointed out, if you think that it has a particular detail wrong, with reliable secondary sources that meet WP:MEDRS, take it up elsewhere. But, I would also point out that you raised this question in relationship to a sentence in a BLP, and arguing over the state of dental focal infection theory strikes me as being completly a WP:COATRACK issue. Fladrif (talk) 18:00, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

The premise of my question was two fold and you didn't address the second part--how can a medical statement by Ingle's Endodontics that CONTRADICTS articles from Journal of the California Dental Association, JADA, Military Medicine, and Journal of the American Dietetic Association, two textbooks by Wiley, and a book by the very same publisher across nearly half a century meet WP:MEDRS? Explain how Silverman (also published by Mcgraw Hill) can say "Additionally, recent evidence associating dental infections with atherosclerosis and other chronic diseases has also helped resurrect the focal infection theory. The detrimental effect of focal infection on general health has been known for decades." but the very same year (2002) the 5th edition of Ingle's Endodontics states "Today the medical and dental professions agree that there is no relationship between endodontically treated teeth and the degenerative diseases implicated in the theory of focal infection."? The two statements do NOT agree ergo one MUST be wrong-QED and since Silverman has supporting evidence while Ingle's Endodontics has to date NONE, claiming Ingle's supersedes everybody else makes no blasted sense.--BruceGrubb (talk) 11:41, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

I have to seriously ask if you are fully thinking about the full implications of everything I am pointing out. You have conveniently ignored the conflict with another book by the same publisher, the fact that the parent publisher is putting out books in support of Homeopathy, and that aobut every other reliable source says otherwise.

As for the BLP issue that (see Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard/Archive97#Noticeboards.2C_source_criticism_and_claims_of_BLP_issues for the actual details) was in regard to WP:BLP being misused as a censorship hammer to silence any criticism of Stephen Barrett despite the consensus (see Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Is_a_paper_.28possible_blog.29_by_a_psychiatrist_valid_regarding_old_claims_regarding_dentistry.3F) that in that regard Stephen Barrett did not meet WP:RS. Things escalated to Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents/Problem_on_BLP_noticeboard#Problem_on_BLP_noticeboard where the majority held that the BLP claims were totally bogus and that it was being misused as a magical censorship hammer. As I have shown with the many WP:RS (some of which are reproduced below) the Ingles Endodontics book has serious factual problems:

"Today the concept of focal infection has been integrated into the practice of medicine. One speaks no longer of the theory of focal infection ; one recognizes focal infection as a definite pathologic condition requiring scientific diagnosis and treatment." (1947 Journal of the American Medical Association Volume 133:2 page 111).

"One cannot deny the existence of such a mechanism as operates in focal infection, ie, infection in one locus leading to manifestations elsewhere in the body. One has but to call to mind the metastases that occur in such infections as tuberculosis, gonorrhea, syphilis, pneumonia, typhoid fever, and mumps." ((1952) Southern California State Dental Association journal; pg 27)

"...in spite of lack of scientific evidence the dental focal infection theory never died (O'Reilly (2000) "A history of Oral sepsis as a cause of disease" Periodentel 2000 23:13-18 and Pallashe TJ (2000)(Textbook of Endodontology by Gunnar Bergenholtz, Preben Hørsted-Bindslev, Claes Reit putlich by Wiley page 135-13).

"It is becoming more validated that the oral cavity can act as the site of origin for spread of pathogenic organisms to organisms to distance body areas,..." Saraf (2006) Textbook of Oral Pathology Jaypee Brothers Medical Publishers pg 188

"Focal infection-it refers to metastasis from the focus of infection, of organisms or their products that are capable of injuring tissue" (Ghom (2009) Textbook of Oral Pathology Jaypee Brothers Medical Publishers pg 459)

"This is why the dental and medical communities are cautiously reconsidering the biological plausibility of the 'focal infection' theory." (Henderson, Brian; Michael Curtis, Robert Seymour (2009) "Periodontal Medicine and Systems Biology", Wiley; Page 33)

Two Textbooks as well as the Journal of the California Dental Association, JADA, Military Medicine,Journal of the American Dietetic Association, the New York Academy of Dentistry, and other WP:RS over the course of half a century all show that in this instance Ingles Endodontics at best makes a misleading statement and at worst simply got it wrong. Please note that WP:MEDASSESS which covers WP:DUE is also covered under WP:RS: "Views that are held by a tiny minority should not be represented except in articles devoted to those views." In this case Ingles Endodontics is clearly in the minority--BruceGrubb (talk) 07:24, 20 February 2011 (UTC).

It looks as if the consensus is that the McGraw-Hill book is a reliable source. I guess I agree with others in the discussions elsewhere that you're conflating Price's applications with focal infection theory itself. I think the current text should be more clear. I'd revise it to say "Price's applications of focal infection theory . . . " TimidGuy (talk) 12:17, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

Take a good hard look at BOTH Mcgraw-hill publications:

"Additionally, recent evidence associating dental infections with atherosclerosis and other chronic diseases has also helped resurrect the focal infection theory. The detrimental effect of focal infection on general health has been known for decades. Prophylactic antibiotics are routinely prescribed before some dental procedures to immunosuppressed and other at-risk patients, to combat the spread of oral bacteria into the blood stream." (Silverman, Sol; Lewis R. Eversole, Edmond L. Truelove (2002) "Essentials of oral medicine" Mcgraw-hill; Page 159)

"Today the medical and dental professions agree that there is no relationship between endodontically treated teeth and the degenerative diseases implicated in the theory of focal infection. However, a recent book entitled Root Canal Cover-up Exposed has resurrected the focal infection theory based on the poorly designed and outdated studies by Rosenow and Price.8 This body of research has been evaluated and disproved." (Baumgartner, J. Craig; Siqueira, Jose F.; Sedgley, Christine M.; Kishen, Anil (2007), "7", Ingle's Endodontics (6 ed.), Mcgraw-hill, pp. 221–222)

Note the "recent" comment about Root Canal Cover-up Exposed. I would hardly call a book originally publisher in 1994 "recent". A little digging shows that this paper by Baumgartner was chapter 3 in the 2002 version of Ingle's Endodontics which is nearly verbatim to the 2007 version.

More troubling is this statement by Baumgartner: "Practitioners are well aware of the relationship between bacteremias caused by dental procedures (especially tooth extraction) and infective endocarditis. This is an example of focal infection that is not related to the classic theory of focal infection. A bacteremia associated with a dental procedure introduces bacteria into the circulation. It does not arise because of the mere presence of an endodontically treated tooth."

But the source of both Price's time and our own show this claim is WRONG:

"All focal infection is not of dental origin, but a sufficiently large percentage is to demand a careful study of the mouth and teeth in all cases of the mouth and teeth in all cases of systemic infection, for in these cases all foci should be removed." (1918) Dental summary: Volume 38; Page 437)

"The hypothesis which assumes the causative connection between the primary focus and the secondary lesion is called the "focal infection theory."" (Stillman, Paul Roscoe (1922) A Textbook of clinical periodontia; Page 111)

"'One cannot deny the existence of such a mechanism as operates in focal infection, ie, infection in one locus leading to manifestations elsewhere in the body. One has but to call to mind the metastases that occur in such infections as tuberculosis, gonorrhea, syphilis, pneumonia, typhoid fever, and mumps. I cannot support the statement in the "critically appraised" report on dental foci of infection that "later laboratory workers were unable to confirm the bacteriologic findings of Rosenow on which the concept of 'elective localization'" ((1952) Southern California State Dental Association journal)

MJ: What is the "focal infection" theory?

George Meinig: "This states that germs from a central focal infection - such as teeth, teeth roots, inflamed gum tissues, or maybe tonsils - metastasize to hearts, eyes, lungs, kidneys, or other organs, glands and tissues, establishing new areas of the same infection. Hardly theory any more, this has been proven and demonstrated many times over. It's 100% accepted today. But it was revolutionary thinking during World War I days, and the early 1920's!"

"A focus of infection has been variously described but probably best as a circumscribed and confined area that:

• Contains pathogenic microorganisms;
• Can occur anywhere in the body; and
• Usually causes no clinical manifestations. (Easlick KA, Brown WE Jr, et al, An evaluation of the effect of dental foci of infection on health. J Am Dent Assoc 42(6):617-97, 1951.)

A focal infection is a localized or general infection caused by the dissemination of microorganisms or toxic products from a focus of infection."

..."Foci of infection have typically been said to arise from the tonsils, oral cavity, or sinuses, but also from the prostate, appendix, bladder, gall bladder, and kidney with pyorrhea alveolaris (periodontitis), alveolar abscesses, and pulpless teeth (treated or untreated) being the principal oral culprits and the viridans group streptococci as the prime microbial pathogens"

The application of the focal infection theory eventually fell from scientific favor for many reasons including the: Zdroj:https://en.wikipedia.org?pojem=Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_90
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