Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 303

This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 300

Archive 301

→

Hi, was confused about how the community would view the following:

Link Would this link be considered reliable? Would it count towards notability?

Thanks!

The overall source is OK; the article itself is a bit borderline in that it seems to be mostly the reporters simply repeating the words of the subject. I cannot speak to notability. Mangoe (talk) 17:13, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

Livemint is reliable, can contribute to notability but note there's a higher bar for companies and organisations, you'll need more than one article and in varied sources. Tayi Arajakate _Talk 18:07, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

Recommend deprecating starsunfolded.com

I'm going to recommend that the community deprecate starsunfolded.com and add it to one of the rejected website lists, like XLinkBot Revertlist, or whatever the traditional thing to do is. It's a content-scraping site that often pops up high in Google search results, typically for Indian entertainment personalities. (Ex: Google "How tall is Digangana Suryavanshi?" There's no presumption that anyone is actively monitoring the content, and the high placement in the search results makes it an attractive site to add here. So far it looks like people have done a good job keeping it out of articles, but it wouldn't hurt to have a bot help. Ping me if you need more info. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 22:18, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

Oppose this "deprecation" system, but if there is a source that I would do it for this is a good choice. Support adding to XLinkBot Revertlist. --Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 22:26, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

Per starsunfolded.com

it appears to not be used in enwiki article space at all at the moment, though it is notable enought that it has been discussed on this noticeboard in 2016 and 2019, so it is probably worth a Perennial sources entry. I don't think it's worth adding to any list if use isn't significant enough that references to it can be easily removed manually. Hemiauchenia (talk) 22:27, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

Isn't it already blacklisted? Atlantic306 (talk) 22:39, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

Not as far as I can tell, a ctrl f of MediaWiki:Spam-blacklist for starsunfolded came up with nothing. Hemiauchenia (talk) 22:42, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

Support revertlisting or at least blacklisting - the reason "it appears to not be used in enwiki article space at all at the moment" is because it is on my search list - I remove 3-4 a week - Arjayay (talk) 12:30, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

I have added a perennial sources entry for this website. Hemiauchenia (talk) 14:38, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

I don't think we should add obscure sites like these to the perennial list, spam-blacklist should suffice and would be more effective at preventing its use. Tayi Arajakate _Talk 19:28, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

I don't have any clear evidence that it is being spammed, per se, so it seemed a bit rash for me to decide unilaterally to report it as spam. There are tons of websites I'd love to nuke out of existence at Wikipedia, after all.

If sending it to the blacklist is a consensus decision established here, then I'm happy to report it there when the discussion is closed. I certainly don't think Arjayay should be the only one removing these links. Thanks, by the way, Arjayay. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 20:47, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

Reliability of Box Office Mojo

Withdrawn

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Hi, Ainz Ooal Gown is here. I am currently trying to improve Weathering with You to GA status. When working on this article, I noticed that the total worldwide gross of the movie is reported differently on multiple websites. Hollywood Reporter says that Weathering with You grossed 357 million dollar worldwide.

That smash hit, which became the second-highest-grossing anime film of all time after it topped $357 million worldwide, is a hard act to follow.

Source: https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/amp/review/weathering-you-1239736 But on the other hand, Box Office Mojo says it grossed 193,145,004USD worldwide.
Source: https://www.boxofficemojo.com/title/tt9426210/

Now I am in a dilema on which source I should use to cite the box office earnings.

Note that Box Office Mojo is owned by IMDb and it it's official brand name is "Box Office Mojo by IMDbPro" indicating that its affiliation with IMDb database. Citing IMDb is prohibited since it is a user generated database and thus unreliable, as per WP:CITEIMDB.

I checked that BOM is frequently cited in film articles and there is no major discussion on wiki about its reliability. Please provide your opinion on this. Yours sincerely, Ainz Ooal Gown (talk) 20:39, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

You are using the wrong link. The articles says Makoto Shinkai’s long-awaited anime follow-up to his 2017 Your Name. That smash hit, which became the second-highest-grossing anime film of all time after it topped $357 million worldwide, is a hard act to follow. This is supported by BOM which says $357,986,087 or $357 million at 3 significant figures. --Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 20:52, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

@Emir of Wikipedia: can't believe I missed that. WP:TROUT to myself. Ainz Ooal Gown (talk) 21:13, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The main problem

The main issue with most of these 'contended' sources is when they are used to quote opinion rather than events. There should be a disambiguation between whether the 'events' are accurate vs the 'interpretation of events' that often isn't relevant.

For example, "x is attended an event at y" using any of these sources is reliable however, its when statements such as "x is a " that these sources begin to be seen as contentious

I don't really think it is possible to resolve this, but I think the weight of judgement should be on whether or not the facts they report are accurate.

Likewise, I think that all 24 hr news media is prone to inaccuracy and speculation. There should be a distinction made between the 24 hour news and scheduled programming.

For example, a fox 'live news alert' getting something wrong is more forgivable than weekly show making a statement after the fact that is false. Likewise, the willingness to retract statements has to be taken into account. Personally, I think network news should be avoided unless the story and its information is an exclusive to their platform.

There is also an information gap that is problematic that I have come across. The gap between memes and pseudonymous groups online and their classification by 'reliable sources' is significant. Often source sources are only able to talk about events that have pertained to 'real life' and so get the chronology of events, and the relationships of individuals completely wrong. Journalist's articles about memes are often far less reliable than knowyourmeme, and to the extent that they are accurate they often cite knowyourmeme as a source. This seems like a contradiction.

Just pondering CantingCrew (talk) 12:40, 19 July 2020 (UTC) CantingCrew

We do have the WP:RSBREAKING guideline, which emphasizes that breaking news reports are less reliable than reports published after more information is available. The guideline states: "Claims sourced to initial news reports should be immediately replaced with better-researched ones as soon as they are published, especially if those original reports contained inaccuracies. All breaking-news stories, without exception, are primary sources, and must be treated with caution".

On the other hand, Know Your Meme (RSP entry) is considered unreliable because its entries are user-generated, and editors expressed concerns over its lack of editorial oversight. If you have evidence that Know Your Meme exercises adequate editorial control, please share it. — Newslinger talk 03:21, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

Is CNN usable as a source for unflattering information about Fox News?

The consensus is that CNN is a usable source for unflattering information about Fox News. Editors largely do not accept the financial COI argument to disqualify CNN. Several editors feel that attribution is needed. Meanwhile, WEIGHT / DUE has been listed as a factor by several editors as to whether such content should be used. starship .paint (talk) 04:36, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

In this edit, @Levivich: argues that a user should receive a six-month topic ban for, among many other things, citing (non-opinion) CNN piece here for something potentially negative about Fox News; Levivich argues that because CNN is a commercial competitor to Fox, they cannot be cited in that context. I've seen that statement before, but never from an established editor; since it seemed shockingly wrong to me, and unlikely to get much in-depth discussion as just one small part of a larger debate over a user's broader history, I thought I'd bring it here to get a more specific answer.

If we accepted this logic, we couldn't cite any news stories at all in relation to news organizations, nor any books in an article about a publisher or author, nor any academics in the same field in an article about academics or even academic concepts - publishers would effectively be at least partially immunized from having critical information covered in their articles. The extent to which a conflict-of-interest matters depends on how narrow and specific it is, on the reputation of the individual or organization in question, on whether the statement is WP:EXCEPTIONAL and so on; "operates in the same general market" is not sufficient to automatically discount an entire massive, high-profile, top-tier news organization with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. This is especially true given that Fox and CNN infamously target different sections of their market - CNN aims for general mass-market appeal, while Fox targets a conservative audience specifically, eg. 1 says "Fox News has achieved considerable financial and audience rating success byusing ideology as its core branding strategy ...Fox News’ ideology-based branding strategy differentiates the network from CNN and MSNBC, which aren’t branded along ideological lines."

I mean, if we were going to count conflicts of interest this broadly, major media companies nowadays have such large and tangled ownership structures that such notional conflicts of interest would run between every major source available - eg. CNN is owned by WarnerMedia which owns HBO; does this disqualify them from any commentary on TV? Fox News also has former House Speaker Paul Ryan on its board, does that disqualify it from talking about his political opponents? News Corp owns HarperCollins, does that disqualify it from commenting on books by rival publishers? Beyond a certain point, as long as a source is a high-quality WP:RS, has a general reputation for fact-checking and accuracy, and hasn't given us any specific reason to doubt their ability to write impartially, we have to trust that reputation in situations like these. --Aquillion (talk) 17:09, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

Sitting at the 60,000ft level, we know nearly no media source is "neutral" when it comes to talking about Fox News, so yeah, the stance that was taken sets off alarms. Looking at the specific CNN article, ignoring its last two paragraphs (which I do think are "snide asides" by CNN), the CNN article is completely neutral to support the added content in the diff, and there's no issue of CNN's bias to worry about here, as it doesn't touch those last two paragraphs. I would agree if it was a CNN opinion piece about Fox, that might be more a problem, but that's not the case. --Masem (t) 17:15, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

CNN and Fox News are the two largest cable news networks. They are both for profit companies, directly competing for market share, with a financial incentive for making the other look bad. We shouldn't use CNN, alone, as a source for negative information about Fox News in the article Fox News any more than we should use Fox News as a source for negative information about CNN. Similarly, we shouldn't use The New York Times as a source for negative information about its direct competitor, The Wall Street Journal, or vice versa. Same with Washington Post and Washington Times. Same with Coca-Cola and Pepsi. Same with one political candidate as as source for negative information about their opponent. Now, it is OK to use NYT as a source of negative information about Fox, or Washington Times, or CNN, etc. But not direct competitors in the same market. Really, we shouldn't be using journalism as a source for negative information about other journalism. We should be using academic sources instead. (I am not watching this page, so please ping me if you want my attention.) Levivich ^{dubious – discuss} 17:19, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

This is a side point but the Washington Times shouldn’t be used because its a pathetic rag founded by the second coming of Jesus Christ (Korean) and still owned by his family (yes Korean Jesus is dead, but he lives in all our hearts now). We don’t actually treat them as generally reliable, do we? That would be preposterous... Horse Eye Jack (talk) 17:29, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

Its definitely usable, but whats the point of this post? It seems like you're calling out Levivich for making a bad call which probably isn't appropriate in this venue. This should have been discussed on Levivich’s talk page rather than publicly shaming them. Horse Eye Jack (talk) 17:24, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

My intent was not to call out Levivich specifically; it's more that I've seen this argument made several times and want to make sure it is properly-settled. --Aquillion (talk) 17:28, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

Ok, I understand that your intention was not to call out Levivich specifically. I wish you had perhaps phrased the fist paragraph differently but if it that wasn’t your intent then I don’t have an issue with it.

On the point of using rivals for information about each other I’ve seen this argument made before although I will admit this is the only time I’ve seen it made by an editor of Levivich’s status. I don’t buy the argument that reliable sources become unreliable when talking about their rivals, the only case I see thats makable is that a reliable source could become unreliable when discussing themselves or a corporate parent/sibling. Thats not really the same thing though. Horse Eye Jack (talk) 17:35, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

Thank you HEJ for your kind words and Aquillion for the clarification.

My contention is that this edit should be reverted (as it was, not by me) because it is improper to source negative information about Fox News (e.g., "Fox News made an error and apologized for it") to CNN, because CNN and Fox News are direct commercial competitors, being the two largest US cable TV networks. I think our policies and guidelines support this:

WP:RS guideline, at WP:BIASEDSOURCES: Common sources of bias include political, financial, religious, philosophical, or other beliefs. Although a source may be biased, it may be reliable in the specific context. When dealing with a potentially biased source, editors should consider whether the source meets the normal requirements for reliable sources, such as editorial control, a reputation for fact-checking, and the level of independence from the topic the source is covering.
- In this case, CNN has a financial incentive to report negative news about Fox News, and thus its level of independence from the topic is low.
WP:NPOV policy, at WP:PROPORTION: An article should not give undue weight to minor aspects of its subject, but should strive to treat each aspect with a weight proportional to its treatment in the body of reliable, published material on the subject. For example, discussion of isolated events, criticisms, or news reports about a subject may be verifiable and impartial, but still disproportionate to their overall significance to the article topic. This is a concern especially in relation to recent events that may be in the news.
- This case is an example of recent events that may be in the news, and CNN's article is an example of criticisms, or news reports about a subject may be verifiable and impartial, but still disproportionate to their overall significance to the article topic.
Most importantly, WP:V at WP:NOTRELIABLE: Questionable sources are those that have a poor reputation for checking the facts, lack meaningful editorial oversight, or have an apparent conflict of interest.⁹
- CNN in this case has an apparent conflict of interest because Fox News is its direct competitor.
- That Footnote #9 reads (emphasis mine): Further examples of sources with conflicts of interest include but are not limited to articles by any media group that promotes the holding company of the media group or discredits its competitors. This case is exactly that.
- Footnote 9 goes on to quote The New York Times: Conflicts of interest, real or apparent, may come up in many areas. They may involve the relationships of staff members with readers, news sources, advocacy groups, advertisers, or competitors; with one another, or with the newspaper or its parent company.
Mostly per WP:V footnote 9, but also WP:RS and WP:NPOV, I don't think we should use CNN as a source for negative information about Fox News. Per WP:V footnote 9, we should not use articles by any media group that ... discredits its competitors. Levivich ^{dubious – discuss} 19:43, 11 July 2020 (UTC)
The obvious solution here is that wherever one media outlet is cited for its reporting on another, the outlet doing the reporting should be identified in the text. For example, "According to CNN, x", or "According to Fox News, y". BD2412 T 19:50, 11 July 2020 (UTC)
@Levivich: The same story appears in The Guardian because The Guardian is a British publication, can it be considered acceptable? Hemiauchenia (talk) 19:51, 11 July 2020 (UTC)
Hemiauchenia, I think so, yes. The Guardian and Fox News aren't direct competitors: different media, different markets. This is as a matter of sourcing of course. There's still the question of whether the content is WP:DUE, but that's a separate question from what source is used to source the content. Levivich ^{dubious – discuss} 19:54, 11 July 2020 (UTC)
If we went with this strict interpretation of the above in the relationship of CNN to Fox and specifically the CoI issue, then I would say that immediately follows from that that CNN and a whole host of sources up to and including the NYTimes cannot be used as sourcing to discuss anything about Trump due to Trump's attack on them as "Fake News" and their own responses back. Which, I think most editors would agree is not going to happen here. I think this is reading too far into the COI part. We generally are looking at when there's more than just that a source is in competition or has some other area of conflict with another - we're generally more focused on when the source has closer financial ties with the topic - eg a puffery piece from CNN about Jason Kilar (the current CEO of WarnerMedia which owns CNN) would be more a problem for us than a report on Fox News from CNN. When the COI is around the conflict between source and topic, this would be more at a deep political level where we know there were fundamental flaws in the logic, eg using German sources in from the 1940s to source an article about Poland. --Masem (t) 21:58, 11 July 2020 (UTC)
If we went with this strict interpretation of the above in the relationship of CNN to Fox and specifically the CoI issue, then I would say that immediately follows from that that CNN and a whole host of sources up to and including the NYTimes cannot be used as sourcing to discuss anything about Trump due to Trump's attack on them as "Fake News" and their own responses back. - No, because WP:V, footnote 9, says competitors, not "critics". This is about money and market share, not ideology. CNN has a financial incentive to trash Fox News and vice versa. There's no "slippery slope" here. Levivich ^{dubious – discuss} 22:31, 11 July 2020 (UTC)
They also have a financial interest to go after Trump and maintain their reputation against calls of being "fake news". I can play devils-advocate and give logic in that direction several different ways, and that's why the COI aspects we consider is not simple market competition or financial association, at least in as diluted the cable news market is, would not be a trigger here. If it were a clear duopoly, okay, maybe.

A factor to add is exactly what is being reported, and how we are using it, eg context (as I first replied here). CNN is not the originator of the story about the cropped photo or Fox's response; the originator would be a site that is a far weaker RS (one we'd need to have its info blessed by another RS to use in the first place) that as written was an attack piece against Fox claiming the photo crop was purposely done to protect Trump (for all purposes). Now look at how CNN has actually written about it and they have cleared out nearly all of the non-neutral facets of the story, simply reporting the basics that "Fox published a cropped photo and later apologized for it." To me, regardless of how much of a financial interest that CNN may have in reporting negatively on Fox, that they did not originate the story, but they appear to be the best current RS reporting on it but not the only one, this is not an issue at all in this case. Something like this report digging deeper into Tucker Carlson poses issues as that is original criticism from CNN and that's a problem with the COI facets. --Masem (t) 22:59, 11 July 2020 (UTC)
CNN is not the best source for this. We have better sources like The Guardian, The Independent, and The Hill, and equal-or-worse sources like People, The Week, and The Wrap. CNN's conflict of interest with Fox News shows up in its reporting. CNN's article includes negative information that none of the other articles include like Fox News' egregious cropping of Trump from the photo drew criticism and prompted unflattering media coverage for the conservative cable network and It's not the first time in recent weeks that Fox News has acknowledged a significant error related to photos accompanying news stories. In mid-June, Fox News expressed regret after it published digitally altered and misleading images of the "CHOP" demonstration in Seattle. Levivich ^{dubious – discuss} 23:44, 11 July 2020 (UTC)
But if you put all those sources side by side to what info they state, exactly what is wrong with the CNN source? Have they exaggerated or manipulated the story? If anything, they are the most conservative (not in the political sense) in writing up the event, outside of the last two paragraphs that we can safely ignore. Sure, we could replace that with the Guardian as it the only other source you have there that is at least as good as an RS as CNN, but the Guardian, despite being a UK publication, would still be vested to see Fox News go down and eliminate its web presence - same with these other sources. (And the Guardian is also a known liberal source). It might have less of the COI issue you're concerned about but it doesn't make the COI issue go away fully. That's why I'm stressing the context of what's being reported and to what others are reporting being a critical part of the evaluation here. --Masem (t) 00:09, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
Well, in a perfect world, I wouldn't use journalism to critique journalism. I would use academia to critique journalism. Or reputable non-profits and think tanks, like Pew. I wouldn't include this content in the article at all as undue, unless I could source it to something better than popular press. If I was going with popular press, I'd want to go with multiple top-tier outlets, like BBC, NYT, and WSJ. If they didn't cover it, I'd say it's UNDUE. But if I am to compromise further, and accept less-than-top-tier popular press, I would want multiple middle-tier outlets like The Guardian, which at least aren't the single biggest competitor, as Fox is to CNN and vice versa. So "less of the COI issue" is the reason I'd prefer The Guardian over CNN, although I'd prefer academia over any popular journalism for critiques of journalism. Levivich ^{dubious – discuss} 00:49, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
But is this critique? Or factual information that happens to be, end of the day, egg on Fox News' face? CNN always labels opinion pieces and that label is absent here, and there's clearly no indication in the prose this is written in a personal critique style. I mean, I agree that the solution is, if the cropped picture story is deemed to be DUE, that sing the Guardian over CNN probably is better, but I am more cautioning that I think we don't want to start with an overzealous treatment of COI in this specific case when the context shows nothing that specifically calls that COI into issue. --Masem (t) 01:16, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
Yes, I'd say an article that describes it as Fox News' egregious cropping constitutes critique. :-) And I know you said ignore the last two paragraphs, but that's like a third of the article. That's the "proof" that COI is skewing CNN's coverage of Fox News's error. Levivich ^{dubious – discuss} 01:46, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
I agree - we're talking financial COI among competing United States cable news and broadcast networks (ABC-NBC-CBS-FOX) so exercise caution. Check to see if they are part of the same media conglomerate. Also check to see if they own local broadcast stations, radio and television, and/or internet publications, and if found, find better sources to cite. If it's a notable enough story, it will be on the BBC, NPR broadcast and/or published in The Guardian and other RS online. A wire service may also fit the bill but if biased, it should be noted. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 22:39, 11 July 2020 (UTC)
No COI for our purposes per Masem's excellent comment. We should apply a grain of salt to all sources. However, many smaller news organizations would be impossible to write about if not for articles by themselves or their competitors, since smaller news outlets are less likely to be the subject of academic analysis. Take this argument further—I've written many articles about academic books; usually the sourcing is reviews from other scholars who have written similar books, which may be in competition for the same readers. No, clearly this is taking COI too far. (Furthermore, I'm unconvinced that CNN and Fox are really aiming for the same audience). (t · c) buidhe 22:46, 11 July 2020 (UTC)
Comment, I recommend adding The Week as one of the sources as it’s a news aggregator reflecting what the majority of sources state on any issue. Gleeanon409 (talk) 01:15, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
Sure it is I reject the idea that news outlets that operate in the same space can't report on each others faux pas, frankly that is ridiculous. Who else is going to call them to account? Of course, this needs to be an actual news piece, not opinion. It would be good to back it up with a source not operating in the same space like The Guardian, but it isn't necessary. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:29, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
Sure, it can be used (CNN is generally reliable, and simply "both being new outlets" is not a COI), per buidhe and the OP. We could, of course, discuss whether it's due if only CNN is reporting it, and as bd2412 says it's likely to be appropriate to attribute their statements unless the statements are confirmed by many different sources (if CNN, the NYT, WaPo, the BBC, the Guardian etc all reported that "Fox did XYZ", we could typically just say "Fox did XYZ"). Likewise, Fox criticizing CNN would not be blocked from being added just because they are both news organizations, though again things like WEIGHT and ATTRIBUTEPOV would be considered. -sche (talk) 01:40, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
Usable; I think buidhe's comment is pretty spot-on. That CNN chose to include a slightly different context than other sources is possibly interesting but, for judging whether their story is a suitable source, immaterial. XOR'easter (talk) 03:00, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

It's usable. Just because CNN competes with Fox does not mean we should expect them to publish false, defamatory stories about them. In fact the article is based on a release by Fox where they say it was a mistake. Anyway the two networks don't compete over the same audiences. The demographics. of their viewers is widely different. If you like Sean Hannity you're not likely to switch to Rachel Maddow because her network said Fox is unreliable and vice versa. TFD (talk) 03:43, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

Sure, with attribution. They are a commercial rival so bias is a clear factor, but bias is not what we reject, its inaccuracy.Slatersteven (talk) 14:16, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
Yes but we should keep DUE in mind as well as being clear what is commentary vs actual clear fact. It certainly seems CNN has an unhealthy interest in FOX news (well both target each other 2). As such I'm not sure I would consider a CNN article about Fox to be much more than sniping and certainly not something that establishes WEIGHT. Most of the CNN vs Fox stories seem to be light weight, commentary type articles or articles that are cheap to produce in order to fill space on the website and generate clicks. Thus in most cases we should treat them as tabloid noise even if the underlying facts are likely true. Springee (talk) 14:17, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
Certainly usable, although this is not the only consideration as to whether something should be included (due weight, etc.). --JBL (talk) 15:38, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
It comes off as a technically yes but not a great idea and most likely undue. Given they have major financial motivation to discredit each other I would be careful. Look at it another way, would you use Fox to discredit CNN? I also disagree with the Pepsi & Coke comparison. I would use Coke to criticize Pepsi since Coke is far superior! PackMecEng (talk) 16:18, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

Notwithstanding the present discussion related to Fox News' general usability, and in light of my comments above, if Fox News were to report on some situation at CNN (and this would arguably be a case like January 2019 Lincoln Memorial confrontation) and similarly kept to neutral factual reporting of the events than critical commentary, I don't we why would not, if they were the more reliable source repoting on the matter compared to mid-range RS. But that said, these events (CNN being caught in a media faux pas and Fox being the only mainstream RS reporting on it) would seem far far less likely to happen than the reverse. --Masem (t) 16:43, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

PackMecEng, what news sources would you use for information about Fox News? TFD (talk) 17:17, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

I would probably head to something like Columbia Journalism Review or the like. Something a little more removed from direct competition and takes a bit of a larger more authoritative view. Also for some reason I did not get a notification about your ping. PackMecEng (talk) 21:15, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

Everywhere is usable as a source for unflattering information about Fox News, as unfortunately there's precious little else that can be cited about them. Levivich's concern is understandable, but I don't think COI plays a role in this particular case. This does not mean, however, that the question wasn't justified in the context where it was raised (see the exchange between Aquillion and Horse Eye Jack above, as well as Levivich's original message). François Robere (talk) 21:02, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
Yes but with attribution if necessary, and due weight. Ktrimi991 (talk) 21:57, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
Yes generally, though occasionally additional considerations may apply, such as if CNN is the only source and not a supporting one, attribution may sometimes be necessary. They’re generally considered the most reliable among the many cable news outlets, and as others have pointed out, they’re one of the few sources that report on the organization itself, and not just the personalities associated with it. Symmachus Auxiliarus (talk) 22:17, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
Yes, of course. The argument about "competition" because they're both news channels seems maybe one step removed from the arguments that, say, all sources that don't agree with source X are "biased" and so criticism can be dismissed as partisanship. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 02:02, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
DOES NOT MATTER - If CNN is the ONLY source to mention something negative about Fox, then I don’t think reliability matters - it is UNDUE to mention it. If other sources do mention that negative something, then the reliability of CNN does not matter - since we can cite the other sources. Blueboar (talk) 02:10, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
Yes. A bizarre understanding of reliable news sources. This would effectively exclude all news sources from being sources on articles about other news sources since they're all in some vague sense competitors. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 05:40, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
Yes, obviously. CNN is a reliable source. Opinion pieces should be attributed, factual pieces can be stated as fact. This is factual reporting, and the underlying fact is not even in dispute. Guy (help!) 14:10, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
Yes. Being a competitor does not prevent CNN from reporting on Fox News. The same would apply if Fox News were to report on CNN, or the New York Times were to report on the Washington Post, or if ABC News were to report on NPR, etc. Calidum 15:53, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
Yes, obviously, and per Rhododendrites. The COI argument presumes that reputable journalistic entities, as a practice, attack other journalistic entities in order to drive profits. That's just not the case, and the most reasonable place to find criticisms of professional work is from other professionals working in the same field. This stretches the COI argument too far (and perhaps means a closer look should be taken at the cited footnote in WP:V to see if it really reflects policy thinking in this area). Grandpallama (talk) 21:50, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
Yes, of course, per Guy. Whether CNN's reporting of facts reflects poorly on Fox or Trump is irrelevant, and believing so shows a troubling adoption of Trump's specious definition of fake news, IOW any reporting, regardless of how true, that reflects poorly on him. No, any source that generally reports facts accurately is a RS, regardless of whether those facts reflect poorly on someone or something, such as Fox News. We don't ban the use of opposing POV reported by RS. We don't ban the use of sources that accurately document when Trump or Fox News shoot themselves in the foot by lying and pushing false agendas yet again. If anyone in that equation should be banned it would be the ones who are lying, not CNN, which keeps us tethered to the same reality that most other mainstream RS also document. -- Valjean (talk) 15:29, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
largely irrelevant Nobody disputes that Fox did what was reported, so there's no actual question of reliability involved. The real issue is whether the incident is important enough to memorialize here. Mangoe (talk) 17:08, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
Yes, of course, per Guy and Rhododendrites's very good points. Neutrality^talk 16:44, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

chabad.org

chabad.org is a website affiliated with the Chabad movement of Hasidic Judaism. Some of its pages have recently been cited as sources in The Exodus article. Partly to cover Orthodox Jewish beliefs and practices, and partly to offer an extensive quotation by Menachem Mendel Schneerson. The article's talk page includes some discussion on the website's possible unreliability as a source, but without a clear conclusion. I could not find previous discussions on the topic in the archives of this noticeboard.

Should the website be deprecated as a source outright, or can we attribute statements to the website and/or its staff? Dimadick (talk) 09:42, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

I've found the website to be accurate for the Chabad perspective on Jewish theology, although better sources often exist that's not enough for deprecation. (t · c) buidhe 10:16, 17 July 2020 (UTC)
This is a long-standing bugbear of mine. Chabad has a very specific perspective on Judaismn, but is used incredibly widely on WP including on articles where the Lubavicher perspective is way out of line with the Jewish mainstream. I think we should be very much more cautious when using this source, and there should be a presumption that it is not used for statements of fact without explicit consensus and not used for quotations / opinions unless there is third-party commentary establishing the objective significance of the stated view. Guy (help!) 10:49, 17 July 2020 (UTC)
My feeling is that it should be avoided unless we're stating something about the beliefs of Chabad itself, and even then there are probably better sources. I don't think either of the two things it's been used to source are particularly controversial - the Schneerson quote is fine, for instance, as expressing Schneerson's words. Whether we include Schneerson is a question of DUEness etc rather than a question of sourcing. I do not really think it's a good source for establishing what Sukkot is though - there are much better sources out there, and I'm trying to collect them on the article's talk page. The main problem with the additions at The Exodus is that they are actually unsourced rather than the use of Chabad.org (to source a long quote and a single sentence in three sections).--Ermenrich (talk) 16:18, 17 July 2020 (UTC)
They have a strict, rather dogmatic theological perspective on Jewish history. The Hebrew Bible is the true word of God, especially as interpreted by their Rebbes and other trusted insider rabbis. Their interpretation, in their view, is the last word on any Jewish issue broadly construed, including Jewish history, the Land of Israel (Palestine), and the State of Israel. On the latter also, their political views and actions are also rather right-wing radical. Their purpose, in the vast array of web sites they develop, is to propagate their views on Judaism and on Jewish matters as wide as possible. They are present on Wikipedia, they recognize its value and influence, and they use it for their own purposes also. They operate world-wide as a well-funded radical religious organization that aims constantly and primarily to expand their base of adherents and supporters; their presence in cyberspace is just an extension of their social and political modi operandi. All this is even before just briefly mentioning their extreme messianic streak, that seems to have been evolving since the passing of their last Rebbe in 1994. Their religious material should be used with extreme caution, with all the above in mind. As for the particular field of Jewish history, which is the one that concerns me directly the most, their material should be considered basically as extremely biased and unreliable for Wikipedia purposes, as a secular, non-religious encyclopedia. warshy ^(¥¥) 18:15, 17 July 2020 (UTC)
Ok for about self when it comes to the Chabad movement. For the given example I would not consider them reliable, the Lubavitchers play fast and loose with both facts and history. Its a movement built on internal repression and dogma not scholarship. Horse Eye Jack (talk) 23:07, 17 July 2020 (UTC)
As others have mentioned here, I would support this as a source for Chabad's viewpoints, however, users inexperienced with the nuances of Orthodox Judaism may encounter this website and use it as a more general source, when in reality, it is describing a very narrow viewpoint. Ultimately, the decision to include it in an article as a source for a general concept in Judaism, rather than something unique to Chabad, will have to be based on a judgement call by the editor that wishes to add it, and should therefore only be used by editors that feel confident enough in there understanding of the subject at hand to make that call. A Chabad article about Jewish Passover customs, for example, might very well just be a simple summary of mainstream customs, and as such, could potentially be used as a source. As for a Chabad article about Jewish theology, if used at all, it would need to be in a sentence such as: "The viewpoint of Chabad, a movement within Hasidic Judaism is that...". --Puzzledvegetable^{Is it teatime already?} 14:07, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

RfC: Fox News

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

The result of this RFC is that there is no consensus regarding the reliability of Fox News (hereafter "Fox").

In regards to the areas of politics and science, there is strong disagreement over whether Fox has a demonstrable record of reliable reporting. Those opposed to Fox as a reliable source pointed to many instances where information was misrepresented, misinterpreted, or incorrect (what some might call a "spin first, issue corrections later" attitude for breaking news reports). Those in favour of Fox make the argument that everyone makes mistakes, with Fox correcting them if/when necessary and with no more mistakes than any other news outlet. With the exception of sensational headlines and doctored photographs, however, there is a reasonable consensus that Fox does not blatantly make up facts. In areas outside these two subjects, as well as reporting from local/affiliate stations, Fox is generally seen as reliable; there were little to no complaints made about these areas of coverage, with some of the opposition agreeing that they were acceptable.

In other words: for science and political referencing there is no consensus regarding the reliability of Fox News, and it should be used with caution to verify contentious claims. For other subjects Fox News is generally considered reliable.

The closers would also like to remark on a few points that, while not directly in the purview of this RFC, should be mentioned.

The pundits and talk show programs related to Fox were explicitly excluded from this RFC, and thus were not considered in the close; they have their own section at WP:RSP.
There was a very large amount of what we considered to be bludgeoning from certain participants of this RFC. While there is no formal limit to the maximum number of times one may comment on a given discussion, replying with the same argument(s) to multiple participants holding an opposite viewpoint becomes extremely tedious (bordering on tendentious).
Parallel discussions (such as the "Also CNN & MSNBC" section, predictions on how the discussion should close, etc) should ideally be kept to a minimum in contentious RFCs such as this one, not only to save on the word count but also on the amount of side comments and sniping that frequently accompany them.

Signed

Primefac (talk) 10:35, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
_signed,Rosguill ^talk 17:13, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 10:46, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

Which of the following best describes the reliability of the reporting of Fox News? (as separate from their cable pundits) foxnews.com has been cited over 15,000 times on Wikipedia.

Option 1: Generally reliable for factual reporting
Option 2: Unclear or additional considerations apply
Option 3: Generally unreliable for factual reporting
Option 4: Publishes false or fabricated information, and should be deprecated as in the 2017 RfC of the Daily Mail

Additional questions:

Does FOXNews.com have a separate reliability from their cable news reporting?
Do local affiliate stations have a separate reliability to the main Fox News operation?
Is Fox News reliable for US Politics?

The last RfC on Fox News was in 2010, Fox News is currently described at the RS/P as:

FOX News was determined by consensus to be generally reliable per WP:NEWSORG. The network consists of 12 news bureaus worldwide, including their New York headquarters. Several shows in the channel's news lineup include America's Newsroom, The Daily Briefing, Bill Hemmer Reports (replaced Shepard Smith), Special Report with Bret Baier, The Story with Martha MacCallum, and Chris Wallace anchoring Fox News Sunday. Some editors perceive FOX News to be a biased source whereas others do not; neither affects reliability of the source. Editors should always exercise caution when choosing sources, and treat talk show content hosted by political pundits as opinion pieces, avoid stating opinions in Wikivoice and use intext attribution as applicable. The Fox News website maintains a form for requesting corrections.

Hemiauchenia (talk) 18:20, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

Responses (Fox News)

Option 2: In view of recent events, their reporting seems biased towards information discrediting the protests. However, their factual reporting of non politically charged subjects stays adequate. That being said, I noticed that they give a lot of weight to POTUS since it was revealed that he was a regular watcher. Being nearly the only network giving him interviews. Feynstein (talk) 18:33, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
Option 1 Fox News is a standard WP:NEWSORG, yes it may contain a bias (most RSs do), but does not mean it is not reliable. Fox also issues corrections which further indicates fact-checking. At this point it is beating a dead horse unless some substantive evidence can be presented on the contrary. Regards Spy-cicle💥 ^Talk? 18:48, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
Option 2 or 3 (lean towards 2), the quality of the core network’s reporting has declined over the last decade. Care must be taken though, most network affiliates (such as WTIC-TV) remain generally reliable sources and I want any downgrade to be clear about that. Horse Eye Jack (talk) 18:54, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
Options 1/2. Option 1 for straight news reporting. Fox News's straight news reporting is very different from their talk shows like Hannity, Ingraham, etc. Their news department's bias appears more in what things they choose to cover than in how they cover it. This bias doesn't make it unreliable - almost all news orgs have some form of bias. However, given the network's close ties with Donald Trump, I think option 2 is warranted for coverage of Trump in particular.
I don't think any outcome of this RfC should apply to content produced by local bureaus affiliated with Fox. In my experience those bureaus are no more or less reliable than other local news bureaus. −−− Cactus Jack 🌵 19:00, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
Option 1 Per User:Spy-cycle. Fox News does appropriate fact checking on their reports. This establishes reliability of their works in general and the fact that it is cited quite a lot means that most in wikipedia understand that it is a standard news organization. Furthermore, the others who say that it is not as reliable are going to argue based on subjective measures of not liking it with no empirical metrics. The fact that Fox News tends to have notable commentators like senators, representatives, etc that are notable right wing and left wing on shows like Tucker Carlson and Hannity's shows means they are not like Daily Mail. Also some heavy members of government like Mike Huckabee (ex governor and ex presidential candidate) and Jason Chaffetz (ex congress member) actually host some of the programs and this gives the network insider access to details on developing news. Furthermore, emotional reporting done by CNN and MSNBC does not demote them either. The point on reliability is not whether their stories end up to be true, it is do they have fact checking. Many news stories are developing so the details get confirmed and then rejected as time goes on and as more information emerges. CNN and MSNBC were wrong about Russian Collision, Muller Report, impeachment proceedings on Trump, and other stuff, but they would not be unreliable in Wikipedia's eyes either.Ramos1990 (talk) 19:22, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
Option 1, except for prime time "pundit" reporting about Trump. Speaking generally about, for example, articles posted to the website, Ad Fontes, an organization that analyzes and compares news sources, considers the website reliable. I agree with CactusJack. --Bsherr (talk) 19:29, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
@Bsherr:You might want to double check that source... They put Fox News in the “Red Rectangle: Nonesense damaging to public discourse“ 3 which is their lowest category, they rate it below Daily Mail and I see no indication that they endorse Fox New’s reliability (at most they say “Reliability scores for articles and shows are on a scale of 0-64. Scores above 24 are generally acceptable; scores above 32 are generally good.” while assigning Fox News a score of 26.75). Can you elaborate? Horse Eye Jack (talk) 21:01, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
Option 1 for news, 2 for pundit shows ^{fixed 10:04, 3 July 2020 (UTC)} didn't we just have an RfC about Fox News a few months ago? Did the OP check to see before calling this RfC?? Fox News is as reliable a source as the other cable news networks that also host pundits. The news is reliable, the pundits are opinion. See the write-up at WP:RS/Perennial sources. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 20:53, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
Adding links to demonstrate that Fox political commentary (not it's newscasts) is very much like that of all other mainstream media except with a conservative bias; the latter of which is not a valid reason to demote a RS anymore than it is valid to demote CNN for it's liberal bias. The US has a two-party system so biased opposition is expected. Pew Research demonstrates the stark partisan split of Fox News Channel viewers, noting that it is by far the most watched cable news channel. Pew states: Liberal Democrats are far more likely than conservative or moderate Democrats to say they distrust Fox news (77% vs. 48%). The Game of the Name, A Slobbering Love Affair: The True (And Pathetic) Story of the Torrid Romance Between Barack Obama and the Mainstream Media, Bias: A CBS Insider Exposes How the Media Distort the News, The Rise and Fall of the Obama-Media Romance ^{16:10, 15 June 2020 (UTC)}

Sidebar note to closer (for clarity) - I just want to distinguish between the political pundits that headline Fox News Channel's primetime line-up vs actual news reporting by Fox news anchors, such as Special Report w/Bret Baier, Fox News at Night w/Shannon Bream, Bill Hemmer Reports, America's Newsroom w/Ed Henry and Sandra Smith (reporter), Fox News Sunday w/Chris Wallace, etc. This RfC is supposed to be focused only on the newscasting, not the political commentary by political pundits on The Five, Hannity, Carlson, Laura Ingraham, Fox & Friends in the mornings, etc. but several of the iVotes indicate that the two have been conflated. CNN refers to their political pundit Don Lemon as a news journalist despite the fact that his show is not a newscast, rather it is biased political commentary not unlike the political pundits on Fox News Channel, and the same or similar applies to Wolf Blitzer, Chris Cuomo, Anderson Cooper, Jake Tapper, etc. none of whom anchor a newscast; rather they host commentary/opinion. We would not downgrade CNN News because of their political pundits. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 22:08, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

Adding - a substantial number, if not all, of the sources cited by the opposes are questionable sources not suitable for contentious claims about others per WP:V policy which states: Questionable sources are those that have a poor reputation for checking the facts, lack meaningful editorial oversight, or have an apparent conflict of interest.9 Footnote 9 further states: ...sources with conflicts of interest include but are not limited to articles by any media group that promotes the holding company of the media group or discredits its competitors; news reports by journalists having financial interests in the companies being reported or in their competitors; material (including but not limited to news reports, books, articles and other publications). ^{12:04, 3 July 2020 (UTC)}

Just FYI Ed Henry has been fired 4, its this sort of rapid turnover at Fox that really worries me. None of the voices I considered reliable a decade or two ago are there. Horse Eye Jack (talk) 01:23, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

Meh - turnovers aren't a big deal. It happens to all of them, including the big three broadcast networks, not just cable news. Look at Tucker Carlson: he was a CNN commentator (2000—2005), co-hosted Crossfire (2001—2005), did MSNBC (2005—2008) and now hosts one of the highest-rated talking head shows in primetime on FoxNews Channel. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 09:57, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

Carlson is a racist, misinformation spreading, conspiracy theorist... Not a journalist or news presenter. Unless I highly misunderstand the conversation here today we are talking only about the news side and not the commentators like Carlson. If we are talking about the bottom of the barrel scum that are the Fox News commentators then my vote goes from leaning 2 to a rock solid 4. Horse Eye Jack (talk) 17:33, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

The fact that he's been allowed on FN for twelve years (along with such standards of journalism as Sean Hannity (24 years) and Bill O'Reilly (21 years)) tells you all you need to know about their integrity as a network. François Robere (talk) 18:28, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

François Robere, 1. Those are not the people we are talking about, as the RfC states this is ONLY about Fox News' news programming, not their opinionated talk show hosts. 2. Please stop WP:BLUDGEONING. It is not necessary or constructive to respond to each and every opinion that contradicts yours. JOE BRO 64 18:56, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

Also, for the sake of nitpicking: O'Reilly was a respected journalist before moving to Fox. He'd worked at ABC and CBS for several years and hosted Inside Edition, where he became one of the only people to ever interview Joel Steinberg. JOE BRO 64 19:01, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

Actually, these are exactly the people we are talking about. Fox news is one network, to which both the "news" and the "opinions" aspects belong. They're both under the same management, part of the same editorial hierarchy and paid by the same people; there's no "Fox Opinions" and "Fox News", just "Fox News". You cannot untwine the two, and no media critic, analyst or academic that I'm aware of does so.

Re: WP:BLUDGEONING - ah... it's you who replied to someone who contradicts your opinion, I replied to Horse Eye Jack... François Robere (talk) 11:56, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

Option 3. You can track how Fox's news output has moved over the last three to four years from a right-leaning mainstream source to part of the conservative media bubble. It's extensively documented in Yochai Benkler's Network Propaganda, and you can track it over successive iterations of the Ad Fontes chart. You can also see it in specific events such as the departure of Shep Smith. It used to be that Fox talk shows were junk, and Fox news broadcasts and websites were OK. Not so any more. Example: "the amount of coverage Fox News devotes to Antifa is preposterous. A search for “antifa” on Fox News’ website from November 2016 to the present returns 668 results, while “homelessness” returns 587, and “OxyContin,” 140. “Permafrost” returns 69. A decentralized, leaderless activist group with no record of lethal violence in this country, antifa has been skilfully transmogrified by the conservative media into one of the gravest threats facing Americans in 2019" 5. The wall of separation between reporting and opinion has long since been blown away, and Fox is now the media arm of the administration. On CO|VID-19 it has published outright misinformation "Tara Setmayer, a spring 2020 Resident Fellow at the Institute of Politics and former Republican Party communications director, said what’s coming from Fox News and other pro-Trump media goes well beyond misinformation. Whether downplaying the views of government experts on COVID-19’s lethality, blaming China or philanthropist Bill Gates for its spread, or cheering shutdown protests funded by Republican political groups, it’s all part of “an active disinformation campaign,” she said, aimed at deflecting the president’s responsibility as he wages a reelection campaign." 6 I could go on. Fox has changed over the last three to four years, in a meaningful way, and we should recognise that. Guy (help!) 20:56, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
I do not know the reliablity of Yochai Benkler's "Network Propaganda", not listed at RSP so I cannot determine its usefulness in this discussion. The opinion of a Buzzfeed News journalist on how much coverage Fox News should give to Antifa compared to homelessness is irrelavent. We need to know whether these articles produced by Fox are reliable and fact checked (which as I explained above I believe they are) not what topics they do and do not cover. I cannot speak for the latter half of your comment since it is an offhand quote from Tara Setmaye as opposed to a multitude of RSs. It is possible Setmayer is true but was referring to the talk shows like Tucker Carlson Tonight which is more likely to be true as opposed to the website. Regards Spy-cicle💥 ^Talk? 21:24, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
- Benkler et al.'s Network Propaganda is a peer-reviewed Oxford University Press book.7 Snooganssnoogans (talk) 03:17, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
It doesn't matter for our purposes whether Fox covers various news events proportionally. What matters is whether specific news articles produced by Fox News are reliably accurate. If we were using Fox News coverage as an integrated whole to tell what current events are important based on their coverage, yes, that would be a problem, because they often selectively choose what topics to cover most heavily. But Fox's lack of coverage of the opioid crisis, for example, has no bearing on whether an individual Fox News article on homelessness, for example, is accurate. −−− Cactus Jack 🌵 21:29, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
I'll just add a bit of clarity per an NPR interview with Benkler: INSKEEP: Benkler was drawing a picture of something we can't really see, how millions of people find and pass on information. He's a Harvard professor. He also works with the Open Society Foundations. Those are the pro-democracy groups funded by George Soros, the financier who has commonly backed Democrats in the United States. Does anyone have a link to the "peer review" so we can see who was on that panel? ^Atsme _Talk 📧 16:16, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
Comment I agree with other commenters that the reliability of their cable pundits are separate from their news operation (I would consider the pundits to be generally unreliable considering their recent role in downplaying the Pandemic and for many other misleading and false statements made throughout the years). However their publication of a false story about Seth Rich working with Wikileaks was an egrigious error of judgement, which they (thankfully) subsequently retracted, which makes them much better than some sources (cough, OpIndia, cough). However, their decision to publish the story in the first place makes me question their editorial judgement. Hemiauchenia (talk) 21:48, 7 June 2020 UTC)
Concerns have been raised about other articles in Fox News by Malia Zimmerman, the author of the Seth Rich report, see The New Republic and Quartz
That was Hannity - a pundit. Maddow does the same stuff only different topics. We've also endured 2 or 3 years of a Russian collusion nothingburger by left leaning sources. Our job is to bypass the speculation, conspiracy theories and biased opinion journalism regardless of who is publishing it - they all do. Stick to WP:RECENTISM, WP:NOTNEWS, WP:NEWSORG - the latter of which are now conglomerates. Wait for the historians and academics to give their retrospective accountings. There is no argument here that I've read that is not based in political opinion, and that is not a valid reason to declare the most watched cable news show unreliable. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 21:57, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
@Atsme:, While Hannity also spread the conspiracy theory, it was also reported on at foxnews.com, see this archive. Hemiauchenia (talk) 22:01, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
That archived report was simply a news report - the big 3 also reported the incident. ABC reported it and criticized Fox "commentators", not Fox newscasters. Please state the facts accurately. Fox has criticized the networks as well for their misreporting of events. It goes back and forth. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 22:09, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

Atsme, MSNBC is not reliable for factual reporting. Even though Maddow, unlike Hannity, does cite her sources. Guy (help!) 23:03, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
Guy, do you frequently watch Hannity or Maddow? If my memory serves, they're on at the same time? From what I understand, Hannity actually interviews the sources on his show (radio talk-show, too). I can quickly recall Maddow's "self-defeating spectacle" per Slate over Trump's tax returns, and there are several such spectacles, not unlike Hannity's but guess who leads in the ratings for whatever reason? And what exactly determines "mainstream" - one's POV, or the ratings? ^Atsme _Talk 📧 21:24, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
Option 3 I would not trust anything I read on Wikipedia that was cited to Fox News content alone. They purposefully manipulate their content for political attention and have an obvious bias that should disqualify them from any use as a reference for even the most basic facts, especially when it comes to America and/or the rest of the world. GPinkerton (talk) 21:50, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
Option 3, Fox News is politically biased to the extent that it affects their supposedly factual reporting. Take this article, front page of their website right now, about the New York Times, which is titled: Liberal paper's editorial page editor steps down amid fury over Cotton op-ed note that the actual article once you click on it is titled differently, meaning that they specifically had this title on their home page in order to drive up rage in place of actually reporting. This is just one example of many, Fox News is a right-wing propaganda outlet that is most certainly not reliable. ~~I would not go so far as to call them unreliable, since as far as I know they have not published downright false information systematically, but~~ I am changing my vote per comments below, any source which publishes climate change denial and Seth Rich conspiracy theories is not reliable. Having that green next to their name is a display in bothsidesism that is not reflected in reality. Devonian Wombat (talk) 22:18, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
- Which part of the headline was inaccurate? The NYT itself reported that its editorial page editor had resigned and that his resignation was connected to negative response to the publication of Tom Cotton's op-ed. 8 --Metropolitan90 (talk) 04:14, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
- The New York Times is a left-wing paper. The headline you're referring to is completely accurate (if real). Many news organizations title their headlines differently on the main page than the actual article and usually it's to condense content or drum up clicks. CNN's front page is doing that right now. Chess (talk) (please use {{ping|Chess}} on reply) 02:56, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
Option 3, or, failing that, 2. No one, I hope, disputes that Fox is extremely WP:BIASED on anything to do with American politics (and I'll note that cites to it are often careless about the requirement for in-text attribution that that generally requires.) While such biased sources can be used provided their bias doesn't interfere with their fact-checking or accuracy, the issue with Fox is that the ideological mission it was founded for takes absolute priority over these things. (9 10) It has been covered as a case-study in propaganda (11 12) and as a leader in the shift towards market-driven sensationalism at the expense of accuracy. (13 14) More importantly for our purposes, these things have led to misleading or outright inaccurate coverage of many disparate topics, especially, though not limited to, climate change. (15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24) Most recently (and perhaps most dangerously), Fox News' COVID-19 coverage has been notably inaccurate in a way that may have contributed to the severity of the epidemic in the US (25 26 27); this, I think, is the main reason to categorize it as a 3. It is true that the network is extremely popular and has high viewership, and it is true that a lot of what they cover is merely biased rather than misleading; additionally, it could be tempting to say that the network is only grossly, constantly misleading and inaccurate in a few specific contexts (eg. climate change), and that it's therefore unusable for those topics but still usable elsewhere. But I feel the recent wave of COVID-19 misinformation from the network provides clear evidence that Fox will freely publish inaccurate or misleading stories without warning, on any topic, the moment the people in charge decide that doing so is important to their core ideological mission and hand it down as part of the daily memo, even in situations where doing so is extremely dangerous. Trying to carve out only a few "unsafe" uses for it as a source is a bad idea because the underlying problem is systematic - while they are not incapable of fact-checking and accuracy, their ability to meet that standard is fatally compromised by a structure that places it completely subordinate to their ideological goals, and by ownership and leadership that have shown themselves to be entirely willing to disregard fact-checking and accuracy, even for extremely important topics, when they find it ideologically convenient to do so. --Aquillion (talk) 22:28, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
Aquillion, please ~~delete~~ specify ^{correction 10:04, 3 July 2020 (UTC)} the sources that refer to the political commentary on Fox News Channel and not Fox News newcasts. This RfC is focused on the newscast, not the political commentary talk-shows. I went through several of your sources and they refer to the commentary, not the news. Thanks! ^Atsme _Talk 📧 15:44, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
Option 2 for most purposes, option 3 for political and racial issues, based largely on the fact that the reputation of the network for bias would taint the reliability of Wikipedia articles citing it for those purposes. Fox just drew controversy for an issue where it posted a graphic of stock market gains tied to prominent murders of African-Americans. Moreover—and this is an aspect I really haven't seen raised before—option 2, at least, because some of their content appears to be undisclosed paid advertising. For example, in one period I saw numerous articles on Fox touting a "Black Rifle Coffee" company, so much so that I even started a draft article on the company. However, I quickly ran into a roadblock in finding that all other news reporting of any substance on the company was in pay-for-play churnalism venues. Upon further examination, it became apparent to me that the Fox pieces were written more like paid advertisements than objective news pieces, and contained objectively false characterizations of the notoriety of the company. There was no disclosure of any payment, so Fox is either in the pay-for-play reporting business, or they are allowing articles to be published that readily appear to be pay-for-play reporting. Either option is problematic for any news coverage that could potentially benefit a party with a pecuniary interest in how an article is presented, from a perspective of either financial or political gain. BD2412 T 22:41, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
BD2412, do you have a link to that controversy? I'm on island time and pretty much out of the loop in real-time. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 00:56, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
Sure, covered here. Of course, Fox is hardly the first network to have to apologize for tone deaf coverage. BD2412 T 01:09, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
Thank you. You're right about apologies - back in January, CNN went silent when Andrew McCabe apologized for lying to investigators. Most recently, this apology by Brian Stelter with CNN who lied about ‘no sign of smoke or fire’. Do we downgrade CNN? I can provide numerous errors and ommissions for that network, as well as MSNBC, ABC, CBS & NBC. Did any other network besides Fox News report these things? We've already seen how the left-leaning stations & networks handled Reade-Biden sexual assault allegation vs how they handled Kavanaugh. WP garnered negative media attention over the left-leaning handling of it - don't you find that concerning? Being a biased source is not a valid reason to downgrade the most-watched news source (with right & left viewers) - to do so is strictly POV rather than being based on an equivalent analysis with other networks. WP policy requires NPOV - it's one of our core content policies - downgrading RS because we disagree with their POV is noncompliant with NPOV when choosing sources. Is the plan to downgrade all political news because it's all biased? ^Atsme _Talk 📧 01:36, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
I am actually somewhat more concerned that they may be promoting paid advertising as news. In retrospect, the thing that first struck me as suspicious about the "Black Rifle Coffee" story is that it appeared on the Fox website, then disappeared for a time, and then reappeared at intervals, a pattern more characteristic of an advertising campaign than a news story. BD2412 T 02:04, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
I don't see any paid advertising scheme there, but I do see insensitivity, and they apologized for taking it out of context, as well they should - somebody obviously wasn't thinking straight. There is no mention in that report about "Black Rifle Coffee" that I could find, so it seems to me that mentioning it with the S&P issue would be SYNTH with a splash of OR, wouldn't it? Newsrooms can be hectic, and you can rest assured it's a ripe environment for mistakes. The latter is why I have always stressed "exercise caution" when citing news sources today. The same FCC regulations that apply to broadcast news don't apply in the same manner to cable/internet news - they enjoy much more freedom because they're not using public airwaves, although none of them are totally immune from political pressure. If you haven't read my op-ed in The Signpost this month, please do.<— shameless advertising, not paid advertising. 😉 ^Atsme _Talk 📧 18:34, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
SYNTH and OR are not really applicable, as we are not discussing whether to include such assertions in an article. Whether we are dealing with shameless advertising or paid advertising, the ultimate effect is that they published claims about the subject that led me to believe that it was a notable subject, and those claims turned out to be inaccurate. BD2412 T 18:21, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

*Option 3 they call Sean Hannity, Tucker Carlson, and Laura Ingraham news. Shows that they don't separate factual reporting from opinions. They promote conspiracy theories with no basis and call it news. Smith0124 (talk) 00:14, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

Striking sockpuppet vote and comment. Humanengr (talk) 00:32, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

Smith0124, there's a difference between opinion & talk shows and straight news reporting. Fox's talk shows are as much of a crapshoot, w.r.t. political affairs, as all other mainstream media. ProcrasinatingReader (talk) 00:20, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
Option 1 per Atsme with a bit of the Option 2 caution suggested by Cactus Jack. I personally think this RfC should be closed since the intent seems to be to ask the same question over and over again until finally someone will close with the answer a group of editors has been hunting for. Springee (talk) 01:01, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
Option 1 While Fox News Channel was founded to provide a forum for U.S. conservative opinion, it has always provided a professional news service. I don't see that the fact they provide right wing commentary detracts from that. Many of their talk show hosts came from other cable news networks: Glenn Beck, Geraldo Rivera, Lou Dobbs, while Megyn Kelly moved from Fox to NBC. All news by the way is biased since editorial discretion is required in choosing stories to present. For example, Fox News covered the sexual assault allegations against Joe Biden long before other legacy media did. But that has nothing to do with the accuracy of their reporting, merely that their emphasis is different. TFD (talk) 02:39, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
Option 3. The following text is in regards to the news reporting division at Fox News (not its prime talk shows and commentators). Academic sources widely consider Fox News as a propaganda outlet, including in its straight news reporting which is often misleading, hypes up non-stories and gets things egregiously wrong all the time. I'll keep the focus primarily on two issues rather than to just list every egregiously wrong thing that Fox News has done: (i) Fox News' climate change denial propaganda and (ii) the intentional promotion of Seth Rich conspiracy theories to divert attention from a negative news cycle for Trump.
(I) Climate change. Peer-reviewed research has widely described Fox News as a major platform for climate change denial.¹²³⁴ According to the fact-checking website Climate Feedback, Fox News is part of "a network of unreliable outlets for climate news."⁵
Bill Sammon, the Fox News Washington managing editor, instructed Fox News journalists to dispute the scientific consensus on climate change: "A leaked email from the managing editor of Fox News Washington, Bill Sammon, during the Copenhagen climate summit in 2009 reveals Fox’s sceptical policy towards climate change. Sammon advised Fox journalists to “refrain from asserting that the planet has warmed (or cooled) in any given period without IMMEDIATELY pointing out that such theories are based upon data that critics have called into question”." Page 174 of Marisol Sandoval. "From Corporate to Social Media: Critical Perspectives on Corporate Social Responsibility in Media and Communication Industries". Routledge.

Bret Baier, a straight-news anchor pushing climate denial propaganda -“In February 2010, a paper on sea level rise that had previously been published in Nature Geosciences was formally withdrawn by the authors because of an error they had identified subsequently in their calculations. Fox News announced the development in this vein: “More Questions About Validity of Global Warming Theory.” In fact, the error in the calculations had led the authors to projections of future sea level rise that were too low!" Page 223 of Michael E. Mann. “The Hockey Stick and the Climate Wars: Dispatches From the Front Lines.”

Bill Hemmer, a straight-news anchor: Promotion of Climategate falsehoods: "“This particular falsehood had been promoted recently by venues such as Fox News , e.g., Bill Hemmer on Fox’s America’s Newsroom, December 3, 2009: “Recently leaked emails reveal that scientists use, quote, ‘tricks’ to hide evidence of a decline in global temperatures over the past, say, few decades." Page 353 of Michael E. Mann. “The Hockey Stick and the Climate Wars: Dispatches From the Front Lines.”
(II) Murder of Seth Rich conspiracy (i.e. "Russia didn't hack the DNC"). On May 16, 2017, a day when other news organizations were extensively covering Donald Trump's revelation of classified information to Russia, Fox News ran a lead story about a private investigator's uncorroborated claims about the murder of Seth Rich, a DNC staffer. The Fox News story reported that the private investigator had uncovered evidence that Rich was in contact with Wikileaks and that law enforcement were covering it up.⁶ The story was in the context of right-wing conspiracy theories that Hillary Clinton and the Democratic Party had Seth Rich killed because he was the source of the DNC leaks.⁶ U.S. intelligence agencies determined Russia was the source of the leaks.⁷ In reporting the investigator's claims, the Fox News report reignited right-wing conspiracy theories about the killing.⁶⁸ The Fox News story fell apart within hours because other news organizations did the basic journalistic legwork to confirm aspects of the story that Fox News intentionally opted not to do.⁹ Furthermore, other news organizations quickly revealed the investigator was a Donald Trump supporter and had according to NBC News "developed a reputation for making outlandish claims, such as one appearance on Fox News in 2007 in which he warned that underground networks of pink pistol-toting lesbian gangs were raping young women."⁶¹⁰ Later that same day, the private investigator said he had no evidence that Rich had contacted Wikileaks.¹¹ The investigator claimed he only learned about the possible existence of the evidence from the Fox News reporter herself.¹¹ Even though other news organizations had quickly found the story to be erroneous and the story had complete fallen apart within hours, Fox News chose merely to alter the contents of its story and its headline, but did not issue corrections.¹²¹³ It took Fox News a week to retract the story. Unlike normal news organizations, Fox News did not bother to publicly explain what went wrong in its reporting.¹⁴ The reporter behind the fabricated story, Malia Zimmermann, may still be working at Fox News (that's at least what her Twitter bio says) despite having egregiously fabricated a story – Fox News can't show the basic transparency of clarifying whether she is still working behind the scenes on Fox News stories.¹⁵
Note that as soon as the Fox News story appeared, editors on the Murder of Seth Rich page fought hard to include it in the article. Editors on the talk page argued that Fox News was considered "generally reliable" (this includes one editor who is voting for Option 1 in this very RfC).¹⁶ This is precisely why Option 1 is unacceptable. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 03:00, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
- And note that I argued against inclusion on the basis that the story had not been widely reported. Also note that you argued vociferously to include a misleading story about Rep. Tulsi Gabbard that had only been reported in one news source (NBC) and I argued against inclusion for the same reason. But that is the nature of investigative reporting. One news source presents something that a source told them and the rest of the media either pick up the story or they don't. Are we going to ban NBC News too on the basis that they are biased in favor of establishment Democrats? TFD (talk) 03:16, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
  - As soon as one other RS reported "According to Fox News...", you said "Fantastic! Let's include this batshit insane conspiracy theory in the article."28 I have no idea what your Gabbard commentary is about. On the Murder of Seth Rich article, I had to spend hours re-writing and fixing the article, and preventing editors such as yourself from lending credibility to a deranged conspiracy theory on one of the most read websites in the world and preventing editors such as yourself from imposing more harm on a murder victim's family. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 03:32, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
- Your climate change points are not any proof against RS. Point 1 doesn't mean anything because that isn't reflected in any actual stories we can point to, nor is it a requirement for WP in reporting on CC stories that the news source has assert climate change is real in every story about climate change. Unless the source is spinning every climate change story in full outright denial mode, that doesn't make them unreliable (At worst, judging the latest CC stories they have run 29, 30, 31 they play just a bit into "skeptic" but they do not let that taint how they report the basic facts of these climate change reports, only just throwing in a para "skeptics say these there may be no climate change" langauge" somewhere. That's not wrong nor touches anything about their RSness. Your point two is using the headline of a story which is never considered reliable so we ignore that. On 3, its clearly misunderstanding the language of the emails as applied to the data per 32 (eg even that book gets the context wrong). So no, none of that proves Fox is not an RS. I wouldn't use them for CC news data only because I don't believe their bias would be helpful and other sources are tons better in terms of the basic science that is involved like NYTimes, but that doesn't rule it out.
- On the whole thing with Rich, the "news" part of Fox that reported on the conspiracy was simply reporting it existed (that the Fox opinion desk side were going all crazy over it) and gave insight from the other side's denial nothing happened like that. Did they chase it down as well as the NYTimes or others? No. Is that a requirement for an RS? No (like the answer to the CC #1 above). All we are looking for is editorial control and fact-checking, which they did some. Not as extensive, and likely they were rushing to print (again, they have a bias) . And key to all that: They Redacted the story within the week 33 . Editorial control. That's all that matters for the RS factor. Now, that editors rushed to want to add it, that's a problem that we are not enforcing BLP, NOTNEWS, and RECENTISM especially with controversial claims from biased RSes. --Masem (t) 03:24, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
  - It was the news division that was behind the Seth Rich story! It was a Fox News scoop – not commentary by Sean Hannity. There would have been nothing for the opinion desk side of Fox News to get crazy over if not for the fabricated story by the straight news division. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 03:40, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
Option 1 as long as we are clear we are not talking about their opinion or talk shows, but only their news programs or news portions of their websites which have been repeated shown to follow the expected editorial control we expect of RSes, biases notwithstanding. Bias does not discount a reliable source, though it is fair to raise the question (like this) if a bias has affected the reliability of a source. Their talk shows should be treated only as RSOPINION and used only when DUE is appropriate. I also point out as noted below this has been asked at least 3-4 times in a non-formal RFC (which is NOT required to include on RS/P) and the weight of those discussions be considered in this. --Masem (t) 03:02, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
- How can the news division of Fox News be considered reliable when its reporters are instructed to promote climate change denial and when said straight-news reporters act upon these instructions and tell brazen falsehoods about climate change? Snooganssnoogans (talk) 03:10, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
  - Their reporters don't lie about climate change, but they give too much time to climate change deniers. Similarly, ABC, CBS, CNN, NBC, and the broadsheets gave way too much coverage to misleading pundits falsely claiming that Saddam Hussein had Weapons of Mass Destruction, in fact manipulating public opinion in favor of what would be a devastating military adventure. TFD (talk) 03:23, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
  - Do you have any examples of this that aren't over a decade old? If so, please provide them. Ten years is a long time in the politics and media world. 10 years ago Mitt Romney was the Republican presidential nominee-in-waiting; today he's one of the most vocal critics of the Republican president. 10 years ago Breitbart News was a generic conservative commentary site; nowadays it's a hard-right propaganda outlet. The layman's consensus in the US around climate change is much, much stronger than it was a decade ago. −−− Cactus Jack 🌵 03:48, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
    - Fox News, Nov 201834: "NASA warns long cold winter could hit space in months bringing record low temperatures" – A complete misrepresentation of the science in order to promote a global cooling narrative.35
    - Fox News, Oct 201936: "Explosion in Antarctic sea ice levels may cause another ice age" – A complete misrepresentation of the science in order to promote a global cooling narrative.37.
    - Fox News, Feb 201738: "Federal scientist cooked climate change books ahead of Obama presentation, whistle blower charges" – Giving credence to the dumb ravings of a climate change denier39. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 04:11, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
      - The Nov 2018 was a mistake several outlets made per Poynter and per Poyner "Like Metro, Fox and The Sun have also since corrected their stories." Editorial control. So not proof.
      - Oct 2019 story: As per Climate Feedback: "The Fox News article has been corrected..." Editorial control. though the fact they don't check with scientists of the work behind a paper before publishing the results of a paper is not great journalism but that's not a requirement under RS.
      - Feb 2017, this one is a bit different. If you read Fox's article, all claims of it are directly attributed to other sources and none to their own; the slowdown claim is from the whistleblower, and of course Daily Mail and Washington Times are used as other sources of information. Now, red flags go up in that I would not touch this story for use in any CC related article, but I stress that in terms of an RS, its not wrong. It doesn't go out of its way to say "this is bad understanding of a graph" but thats again, not a requirement of an RS, and in terms of discussion if someone said "We need to use this article", I would suspect that UNDUE factors from other less biased sources would be there. But again, nothing about that article says anything against being an RS. Just a biased source for CC claims. --Masem (t) 04:38, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
        All the sources that also happened to make Fox News's "mistake" were sources which are considered generally unreliable or which have been deprecated (does the fact that The Sun sometimes runs corrections make it a reliable source with thorough editorial control? No, of course not). That's a clue as to what company Fox News belongs in. And it's entirely consistent with the existing academic literature on the broader network of right-wing disinformation that Fox News sits smack in the middle of. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 05:22, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
Option 1 Just like CNN and MSNBC and all the other cable news channels, they have a news show and a talking head show. Their news is reliable, just as most of the other RS, even if they don't share the same bias as CNN or MSNBC. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 03:42, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
- Baloney, this is the old false equivalence claim. Fox doesn't even try to be neutral, their biases are displayed on their sleeves for anyone to see. CNN and MSNBC keep their news operations separate from the opinion operations, but at Fox, it's all one bag -- that's precisely and entirely what Roger Ailes intended to create. You could see it in his programming on the pre-Fox "America's Talking" channel (that became MSNBC after they kicked Ailes out). His purpose has always been to create a conservative-leaning "news" channel which would counter the bias he perceived in CNN. He wasn't shy about declaring this, and the result is the biased, unreliable Fox News we have today. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:58, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
Not really commenting in the poll, but it’s worth pointing out that there is a substantial difference between Fox News TV and foxnews.com. The former can have some decent reporting depending on the reporter and anchor (also some real crap as has already been pointed out.) Foxnews.com makes the Daily Mail look like the New York Times, though. TonyBallioni (talk) 05:25, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
Option 3 for the most part. Fox News is reliable enough for run-of-the-mill news, but not for news regarding politics or anything connected to politics. They do not maintain a Chinese wall between their news operation and their opinion operations, and are blatantly biased in favor of Trump and the Republican Party, and against anything perceived to be liberal or (God forbid!) socialist. I have no opinion about the local stations, but would suggest that the owned-and-operated stations are more likely to hew to the Murdoch/Ailes model, while the affiliates would be independent operations. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:58, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
Option 3 for the core news reporting (though there can always be exceptions), and option 4 for the pundits, talk shows, and opinion pieces. I fully agree with GPinkerton's and BD2412's assessments of Fox's lack of editorial diligence, and Aquillion has highlighted only a fraction of their misinformation campaign. Even setting my political bias aside, I do not trust their capability to report statements of fact. —⁠烏⁠Γ ^(kaw) │ 06:14, 08 June 2020 (UTC)
Option 3 per JzG. Having read Network Propaganda, this is conclusively proven. Because you cannot rely on self-correction of mistakes, every piece from Fox News needs to be independently verified by the user and therefore citing Fox News ends up being an act of original research. There will be still things one can source to Fox News, for instance "Fox News thinks" or "Murdoch told on Fox News that". For right-wing perspectives one can always cite other prolific media like The Hill which, while clearly politically tinted, tends to be more matter-of-fact (for now). Nemo 08:31, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
Option 1 Standard WP:NEWSORG with oversight. Yes it may have political leanings, but so does The Guardian, CNN and the majority of other media outlets. Yet I don't see them getting the same treatment as this. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 09:39, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
Option 1 I'd normally try to stay away from US politics as toxic but feel obliged to respond to RfC's listed at WP:CENT. I nominated the two most recent stories listed as blurbs at WP:ITN and so am familiar with their details. Looking at the coverage of these on Fox News (40, 41), this seems shallow but accurate and generally unexceptional. Andrew🐉(talk) 10:37, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
Option 1 meets WP:NEWSORG with oversight just like CNN and MSNBC.Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 11:03, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
Option 3 mostly, Option 2 at best for core news reporting. Fox News has consistently peddled inaccurate/fake news, whether an hierarchical structure of a news organisation exists is irrelevant. Fox News also lacks the journalistic tradition of correcting their mistakes publicly in most cases - to state how widespread it is, I found an example in the last one day alone, WTVQ. For pundits and opinion pieces (Tucker Carlson, Laura Ingraham, Sean Hannity, et al.) it should strictly be Option 4 due their nature of sensationalizing news reporting and often making biased and inaccurate reporting. --qedk (t 愛 c) 14:55, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
Option 1 - It either meets RS standards or not. Their core news department does meet WP:NEWSORG from what I can tell. Pundits and opinions should be handled by WP:NEWSBLOG. I think it is important for people to realize the distinction here and I think that is what is being missed by some. PackMecEng (talk) 15:25, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
Option 1 One of the only major conservative news outlets, it is a source for reliable news. Just like CNN is considered reliable even though both news sites have a bias and tend to lead towards their political standing. It would be a shame to not count Fox news as reliable. Csar00 (talk) 15:50, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
Option 1 It meets WP:NEWSORG. Fox News being a WP:BIASED does not severely affect it's reliability; it is not WP:QUESTIONABLE since it's not an "extremist". Now in the COVID-19 pandemic, eh a small difference in its reliability. Taking hydroxychloriquine is not recommended, warned Neil Cavuto to Fox News Viewers. Well then.
.@FoxNews is no longer the same. We miss the great Roger Ailes. You have more anti-Trump people, by far, than ever before. Looking for a new outlet! Donald J. Trump 4:59, 19 May 2020 (UTC).
That is enough to show that Fox News doesn't have bias that affects it's reliability. {{reply to|Can I Log In}}'s talk page! 16:40, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
Option 1 for the news programming, Option 2 or 3 for the pundit programming. Nothing has really changed since the last RFC on this. Note- I would have the same opinion if we were discussing CNN or MSNBC. The problem is that too many of our editors have difficulty differentiating between news reporting, news analysis, and news commentary/opinion. Each needs to be handled differently. Blueboar (talk) 17:40, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
Option 1 or Option 2. I think everyone here acknowledges Fox has a conservative bias. That alone is not enough to deem the network unreliable or to deprecate it, unless we also take a hard look at MSNBC. Calidum 18:10, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
Comment A lot of responses in this thread so far are simply "reliable per NEWSORG" without any justification. I would like to present another story, the false claim that Omar Mateen had been radicalised by Marcus Dwayne Robertson. From The New Republic¹⁷:
Since Malia Zimmerman joined Fox News in 2015, Fox News has repeatedly picked up her reporting and used it to legitimize the larger counter-narratives that form Fox News’s fevered worldview. These stories touched on alleged issues like voter fraud, gun confiscation, the Benghazi terrorist attack, the unmasking of Trump transition officials in confidential documents, and the murder of Seth Rich. Fox News has repeatedly picked up Zimmerman’s reporting and used it to legitimize the larger counter-narratives that form Fox News’s fevered worldview. In June 2016, shortly after the attack on the gay nightclub Pulse in Orlando that killed 49 people, Zimmerman reported that the shooter, Omar Mateen, had been radicalized by an imam and ex-con named Marcus Dwayne Robertson.

Citing anonymous law enforcement sources, Zimmerman alleged that Robertson had been “rounded up” in the wake of the attack and that Mateen had been radicalized while attending an online seminary run by Robertson. But Robertson and Mateen had never met. Furthermore, Robertson had never been “rounded up” by anyone. That didn’t stop Fox News from running with the story—or other outlets, including The Daily Beast, from picking it up—until it was finally debunked. Robertson was forced to defend himself on Greta Van Susteren’s Fox News show On the Record. As reporter David Gauvey Herbert wrote in Quartz¹⁸ his explanation satisfied Susteren. But the damage was done. Zimmerman’s shadowy unnamed sources—whom Herbert and others have been unable to identify—fingered a man who had nothing to do with the terror attack and upended his life. Robertson lost his job and faced a barrage of death threats, despite having no connection to Mateen.

The story, which is still online¹⁹ has not been corrected or retracted. Hemiauchenia (talk) 18:26, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

Why should it be retracted? ^Atsme _Talk 📧 18:40, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

Maybe retracted is the wrong word, but there's no update on the story to indicate that the claims are no longer considered true. The only update on the story was adding Omar Mateen to the death count. Hemiauchenia (talk)

What claims? Please provide a link to the source that supports what you're saying because I don't know what you're talking about. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 19:40, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

"or other outlets, including The Daily Beast, from picking it up" Would you argue that the other sources should be downgraded as well as Fox? I note that The Daily Beast was this year upgraded to a green source on PERENNIAL, should we reverse that? NPalgan2 (talk) 19:49, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

The problem with bad news stories is that they are like anecdotes, they don't tell you the hit rate. I don't think having reported a news story that later turns out to be incorrect is necessarily an issue of reliability, I mean look at the whole Covington thing. As the Perennial sources entry indicates, "Most editors consider The Daily Beast a biased or opinionated source. Some editors advise caution when using this source for controversial statements of fact related to living persons" Which is inline with them covering this story, as it involves BLPs. I would consider the Daily Beast a significantly lower quality source than something like the NYT or WashPo, and if something is being covered in the Daily Beast but not those would have to make a judgement if its use was appropriate. I called this RfC simply to get a new concensus on how reliable Fox News is, not because I have a vendetta against Fox News or conservatives. I would be happy to see Fox News retain its generally reliable rating at the end of this. Hemiauchenia (talk) 20:02, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

Option 2 There is clear bias in how they report certain things, and which things they report and which they don't. For instance, I believe they're the only news organization anyone would consider legitimate at all that tried to discuss the Michael Flynn "unmasking" issue as anything other than a right-wing conspiracy theory. They are okay on some factual matters, but we should use caution when citing Fox News. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:39, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
Limited option 2 - Option 2 is very broad, so I'm going to say that Fox News is problematic on a significant amount of US political reporting. Outside of that, their flaw rate certainly is no worse that others that sources we consider generally reliable (which certainly doesn't require perfection by any means). That political reporting (reasonably construed) is not always flawed, but an appreciable amount is. As noted above, this is often on what is notreported (or not covered in depth) - this can make their reporting lack context, but may, or may not, mitigate on accuracy concerns about what is present. Nosebagbear (talk) 18:57, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
Option 3, certainly for anything related to science, politics, or COVID per Snoogans and also concerned about native advertising per BD2412. b uidhe 19:16, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
Option 1 on news reporting. I note that they use a considerable amount of AP content. Obviously does not apply to commentary.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:44, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
Somewhere between Option 1 and Option 2 for their straight reporting with the usual sanity checks - newsorgs are only the first draft of history, but is the news side of Fox really so much worse than its peers? Certainly the Seth Rich article (three years ago) was a grotesque lapse of judgment, what of CNN letting Chris Cuomo lob softballs at his brother rather than press him on his atrocious response to the coronavirus? NPalgan2 (talk) 19:50, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
NPalgan2, please avoid the whataboutism and keep an eye on your own POV. – Muboshgu (talk) 19:53, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
Muboshgu, the whataboutism link you provided is to a WP article, not WP:PAG. On WP, the closest PAG I could find is the essay Wikipedia:Other stuff exists, which is both useful and useless, depending on context. The essay states: When used correctly, these comparisons are important as the encyclopedia should be consistent in the content that it provides or excludes. I'm of the mind that this is one of those instances where consistency is important. Some of the comments in this discussion remind me of The Atlantic article. I'm of the mind that when either side of an argument is silenced or intimidated into silence, it leads to a homogenous community that is incompatible with NPOV. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 13:57, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
A "whataboutism" is nevertheless an argument that should not be used and should be called out for what it is. I don't think we're using Cuomo on Cuomo interviews as anything other than an occasional source of amusement. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:51, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
Option 1 and Comment. FOX News has had a front-row seat at the White House Press Briefing Room along with NBC, CBS, ABC and CNN for a very long time reporting on the activities of multiple presidencies, both Democrat and Republican. I believe that FOX News should be treated *the same way* as NBC, CBS, ABC and CNN. Also, to the OP User:Hemiauchenia, in the interest of transparency, could you please fill out your User Page with some information about yourself? Thank you. History DMZ ^{(talk)+(ping)} 20:13, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
History DMZ, Please do not ask editors to post personal information. It is not required to post political opinions either. Please respect WP:PRIVACY. b uidhe 20:27, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
Buidhe, I never asked for *personal* information. I asked for *some* information. That can be userboxes, a short introduction, etc. Please don't put words in my mouth that I didn't speak. But to be clear, NO personal information was asked of the OP. Cordially, History DMZ ^{(talk)+(ping)} 20:34, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
History DMZ, I can tell you that I don't really care for Hemiauchenia, despite the fact my account is named after it, having never edited the article. I do think the article (alongside that of Paleolama) are in need of serious work though. Hemiauchenia (talk) 20:41, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
Hemiauchenia, thank you for your cordial and humorous reply. Perhaps what you just shared is TMI for some lol. But seriously, it wouldn't hurt if you introduced yourself a little to the community through your user page. It's *optional* of course. Cheers, History DMZ ^{(talk)+(ping)} 20:52, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

History DMZ, The White House gave press passes to Infowars and OANN. That means literally nothing. Guy (help!) 12:19, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
JzG, The Obama White House (2009-2017), whom I voted into office and hold no bias for or against, gave *front-row* press passes to FOX News and sat them next to NBC, CBS, ABC and CNN. That means a lot. Cordially, History DMZ ^{(talk)+(ping)} 18:02, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
@History DMZ: that was then. They have totally changed because of Trump. It's a symbiotic relationship made in hell. They have moved from ordinary right-wing RS, to extreme right-wing allies of Russian propaganda defending Trump, no matter what, and we know he lies constantly. -- Valjean (talk) 05:42, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
Option 1 Far more reliable than its cable competitors such as the pathetic CNN or MSNBC that are little more than 24/7 coverage of "we hate Trump". Considering all the poorly worded tones of once reliable sources such as the NYTimes, the WaPo, BBC and simliar mostly print based news entities, FoxNews appears as reliable as as them overall. Since we shy away from posting news opinion pieces in most BLPs we also do so with cable based pundit commentary, or at least we should.--MONGO (talk) 20:43, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
Option 2, with Option 3 for political content. Speaking as a journalist, Fox News's news coverage, while better than its opinions commentary, still flouts the professional standards of the industry, and this has worsened since the prior RfC. The Seth Rich example (Poynter headline: "Fox News’s retraction is a woefully inadequate response to its colossal mistake") is just one of many. While it does often publish decent enough content, I agree with Nemo that anything we cite to it would have to be confirmed somewhere else more reliable, at which point it is no longer functioning as a source. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 20:46, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
Option 1 - Opinion, punditry, and headlines aside, their straight news stuff is fine. Like SJ says, on par with CNN, MSNBC, or any other cable news. (Well, better actually than some cable news, like OANN and Newsmax.) I agree with Masem's comments above that making mistakes and correcting them later is not a sign of unreliability. I think it's quite the opposite in fact. Fox News is not a top-tier source and can usually be replaced by a better source, but it's an RS, when used properly. By the way, we just did this last year. 42 Levivich ^{dubious – discuss} 20:48, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
Option 1- How many more of these discussions do we need to have. Sure I understand that consensus can change, but having the same exact discussion every other month just because there is a group of people who hate Fox News is a massive waste of time. It is at least as reliable as its competitor CNN and we haven't banned that as a source yet.--Rusf10 (talk) 23:20, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
Option 1 Reliable. Elizium23 (talk) 23:27, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
Option 1 Per Atsme. Shinealittlelight (talk) 00:05, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
Option 1 As far as actual factual reporting they seem to do about as well as most NewsOrgs. They post their corrections which are easy to call out. Not a huge fan of what they choose to write about but that doesn't make it unreliable. The Punditry is hot garbage but then most punditry isn't reliable anyway.AlmostFrancis (talk) 00:13, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
Options 1 to 4. The news department will generally get "sky is blue" type facts right. They still get all the way over into reporting debunked information, which is sometimes called out by other members of the team, but not always.

Are they "reliable for US Politics"? Hell no. Ask yourself if their reporting deviates from what all other mainstream news sources report. If someone can't see that there is a huge difference between their reporting and the reporting from the rest of mainstream media, they are blind. If they do see the difference, and still consider Fox News generally reliable for US politics, they don't know what's really happening, are buying the GOP party line without thinking, and don't know how to vet sources for reliability. Note that such people consistently hate fact-checking sources.

Keep in mind that research shows that Watching Only Fox News Makes You Less Informed Than Watching No News At All

Fox News was created by Roger Ailes to be a voice for the GOP, not a real "news" station. It's their propaganda channel. With the arrival of Trump, they have gone from normal right-wing (which can be opinionated, but still reliable) to extreme right-wing (which, like extreme left-wing, are not reliable) and often repeat Russian talking points, the exact same ones being pushed by RT and Sputnik, which are Russian propaganda channels. That is very worrying.-- Valjean (talk) 00:18, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

Valjean, for the sake of academic clarity - two FDU professors that were involved in the original New Jersey and later international polling (your link above), Peter J. Woolley and Dan Cassino, explained the misleading results by the news media as follows: "Does Fox News make you dumb? No, but that was the headline generated by news aggregators re-reporting research by Fairleigh Dickinson University‘s PublicMind." They closed with the following statement: We never said, nor meant to say, that Fox viewers are dumb — or MSNBC viewers for that matter. They’re no better or worse than the average respondents. Clearly, anyone who is dumb and watching TV was dumb when he or she sat down in front of the tube. Some news sources just don’t help matters any. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 17:55, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

To ^Atsme - Results from the 2012 Fairleigh Dickinson University (FDU) survey that Valjean reported on (above) found that "Fox News viewers were less informed about current events than people who didn't follow the news at all." 43 That's the result of their study. So it's best to avoid getting hung-up on a headline & instead focus on the results of the study. BetsyRMadison (talk) 20:19, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

Option 2. Great to be here. Lots of folks out there are saying Option 1 and many are saying Option 3, but I like Option 2. In my experience, the reliability of the "News Division" of Fox News has gone down over recent years. I don't think enough people here are talking about that. For me, since Shepard Smith left,⁴⁴ their standards have started to lax. According to Brian Stelter, Smith wasn't the only person in the News Division to leave, and he reported that Fox News executives are mainly trying to head the company away from prioritizing actual journalism in their coverage.⁴⁵ Regardless, it is certainly clear that they have changed in some way over time.⁴⁶
While writing this comment, I did some digging. I wanted a reliable source to tell me how other reliable sources think things are. It's easy to get caught up in your own perceptions of things, so I wanted something outside my own biases. What I found was this article. It's answer: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
It's not clear, and no one knows for sure. We can debate it all we want, but we're never going to get a satisfactory answer out of this question besides (to me) Option 2. –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 02:21, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
It keeps coming up, because it's such a hard case. Ultimately, I land close enough to Option 2 for the news, except for politics which is somewhere between 2-3. Certainly the pundits/talk shows can range anywhere from option 2-4, depending, but the news content is ok for a lot of subjects. I think where it's hardest is when it comes to story selection and word choice in matters of US politics, culture wars, crime, etc. Fox doesn't regularly simply get it wrong and doesn't often contradict other sources on the basic facts, but will cover some things that don't get any traction elsewhere and is more likely to use particular kinds of language to cover those stories, exploiting fears and stoking outrage (like one they've gotten some flack for in the past is "thug" -- for which they're certainly not the only one, of course). These kinds of editorial decisions and framing language have a decidedly negative impact on the accuracy of the content. They're not alone in doing this, but have incorporated it as a fundamental approach, executed in consistent ways. For example, the study that showed that people who watch no news can answer questions about current events more accurately than someone who watches Fox. For the record, I don't think local affiliates should be part of this RfC. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 04:18, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
Option 2, generally. Mostly per all of the above. I'd also add that Fox tends to be a good source in terms of determining what the Republican Party's stance on an issue is. This is roughly in line with my opinion on the merits of including Xinhua or CGTN as a barometer of the "official stance" of the CCP. OhKayeSierra (talk) 04:40, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
Option 2: The arguments that Fox News is generally reliable because of WP:NEWSORG aren't convincing. This specific part of the RS content guideline reflects general consensus for the entire class of sources that are news organizations, and the following are not the same:
- generally considered to be reliable (from WP:NEWSORG, bolding mine)
- considered to be generally reliable (an apparently common interpretation here)
When it comes to an RfC to determine the consensus on the individual reliability of a particular news organization, it's a very weak argument to just say that Fox News is a news organization and then point to the massively general group of news organizations. We need to identify whether the particular news organization engages in fact-checking and has a reputation for accuracy
There is problematic journalism by Fox News, which is elaborated by (among others): JzG and Aquillion regarding misinformation and inaccuracies, Snooganssnoogans and Aquillion regarding climate change and conspiracy theories, Aquillion regarding academic studies on the priority given to ideology, and Sdkb and MJL regarding general journalistic standards.
Fox News does have editorial oversight, yes, but the existence of an editorial team doesn't guarantee reliability. The quality and standards of that editorial process is not at the same level expected of a generally reliable source (bolding mine):
The source has a reputation for fact-checking, accuracy, and error-correction, often in the form of a strong editorial team.
The historical level of journalism over the past decade requires editors to pay significant attention to individual articles, in many contexts, before they can be used as references. — MarkH₂₁^talk 05:05, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
(edit conflict) (Standard disclaimer of I'mabout their opinion/commentary, which is a solid "4", but just the actual news...) Either 3 or 4 overall, and its questionable assessment of appropriate weight means it absolutely should not be used in assessing WP:DUE; probably 2 for the basic facts themselves. I don't think it's the worst offender in regular use on ENWP; it tends to get basic facts right more than it gets them wrong (admittedly a shamefully low bar to set); it strikes me as only a dull roar of awfulness surrounded by a sea of utter journalistic tripe. I'd rank it substantially below "real" reporting — Reuters, AP, NYT — but a bit above all the tabloid-y rags like Huffington Post, Daily Beast, Washington Examiner, Complex, etc. By all means let's ditch Fox, but let's also take care of the tabloid infestation while we're at it! —{{u|Goldenshimmer}} (they/them)｜Talk｜Contributions 06:01, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
Option 3 per JzG, Devonian Wombat, Aquillion, Snooganssnoogans, etc. Gamaliel (talk) 12:13, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
Option 2 1/2 My feelings mirror that of BD2412 for national programming fairly closely. I live in a very small television market, but I would have to say Option 1 for local affiliate news programming. My local station, WEUX contracts with the NBC affiliate for news programming. -- Dolotta (talk) 15:12, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
Option 1: Respectable WP:NEWSORG with editorial control no different then NYT --Shrike (talk) 17:03, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
Shrike, oh, I can think of some differences :-) Levivich ^{dubious – discuss} 18:12, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
I haven't done any investigation of the issue myself, but just looking at this thread, the points put forward by User:Masem are a lot more convincing than any of the points set out by those arguing against (many of which bring up things which aren't relevant to reliability). --Yair rand (talk) 21:02, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
Option 2/3. I think by now it is clear that the pundit shows are not included in this analysis. That said, Fox has shown a top-to-bottom willingness to slant coverage, to use misleading headlines, chyrons, tickers, etc., to give mouthpieces for despicable views a platform, to present conspiracy theories as facts, etc. WP:NEWSORG does not apply when a source has a well-established pattern and editorial direction that allows rumors and untruths (NB:untruths are different from usual journalistic mistruths) to be reported as facts. This is not merely bias. Unfortunately, a blanket statement about which of those options applies is impossible because the reliability varies depending on context, story subject, and even time slot. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 22:31, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
Option 3 Per Aquillion, Snooganssnoogans, and Guy. Everyday non-political/scientific event reporting is fine, but their record in fact-checking and explicit error correction is unacceptable. JoelleJay (talk) 23:49, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
Option 1. treat the same as CNN, NYT, etc. As with any source, my first check is whether or not they have a corrections process and/or policy. They do. 47 Sure, they have gotten stories wrong, and corrected themselves, but then again they didn't treat us to 2 years of Russia Hoax, either. Their bias seems to be less of an issue than with, for example, CNN, which has broadcast 10 interviews of Andrew Cuomo by Chris Cuomo 48. Additionally, the inclusion of Fox as a "gold-standard" source would give Wikipedia some sorely-needed political diversity in its "gold standard" sourcing on US politics, something we lack if we treat it any less than CNN, NYT, etc. Adoring nanny (talk) 01:55, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
- @Adoring nanny: "they didn't treat us to 2 years of Russia Hoax, either". Therein lies the rub. Editors who think that Fox News constant pushing of the completely false conspiracy theory that the proven fact that Russia interfered in the election to help Trump win (that is the narrative from all RS) is a "Russia hoax" have swallowed the kool-aid served daily by Fox News. No wonder the votes for Option 1. They actually see that there is a huge difference between the counterfactual narrative pushed by Fox News, RT, Sputnik, Breitbart, Bongino, and all other fringe sources, and the factual narrative documented by all mainstream sources (IOW the ones we consider RS), and seeing that difference, they still believe the false conspiracy theories because they have been deceived into believing Trump's lie that mainstream media are fake news. No wonder we have this problem. They don't know how to vet sources. Fox Fake News is treated by them as equal to CNN, ABC, BBC, etc. No, there is a world of difference. -- Valjean (talk) 05:35, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
  - The hoax is the assertion that Trump colluded with the Russians. Adoring nanny (talk) 11:13, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
    - @Adoring nanny: that's not the only part denied by Fox News, but, just to keep the terminology correct, the Mueller Report was not able to collect enough evidence (because of Trump's proven obstruction of the investigation) to prove "conspiracy"/"coordination", but did describe numerous examples of what could be considered collusion/co-operation/invitation/facilitation, which is not a crime, just disloyal to the interests of the United States. Trump and Fox News still attempt to deny/downplay that Russia interfered, and the term "Russia hoax" includes that, not just the part about collusion/no collusion. Trump has still not done anything to prevent the current disruption of the elections and has stated he would accept foreign interference to help him, and that he might not even notify the FBI, which would make him vulnerable to blackmail by foreign bad actors like Russia. -- Valjean (talk) 16:35, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
      - MR. CLAPPER: Well, no, it's not. I never saw any direct empirical evidence that the Trump campaign or someone in it was plotting/conspiring with the Russians to meddle with the election 49. So Fox was right about that all along. A fine example of why we need them as a first-class source. Adoring nanny (talk) 21:32, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
        You seem to be ignoring the difference between "conspiracy" and co-operation/collusion. Mueller describes the Trump campaign's actions quite well as "the two parties taking actions that were informed by or responsive to the other's actions or interests." The Trump campaign did take myriad proven "actions that were informed by or responsive to the other's actions or interests", but without evidence of a formal written or spoken agreement, conspiracy could not be proven, even if everything done, and the results of those actions, indicated that such an understanding existed, regardless of whether a formal "agreement" existed. Conspirators usually avoid leaving such evidence.

Starting in 2015, EIGHT foreign allied intelligence agencies reported to the FBI that numerous Trump campaign members and associates were secretly meeting with known Russian intelligence agents (who were being monitored). The campaign lied about all these contacts. Their conversations were so worrying and a threat to American democracy that those intelligence agencies reported their findings to the FBI (and maybe CIA). The Trump campaign was deeply involved with Russian intelligence, and we saw the results. That's collusion (or unproven conspiracy), no matter how it's defined. Fox News will not tell you any of that, but RS do, and our articles here do.

There is a huge difference in the coverage by Fox News and mainstream news. Fox News paints Trump and his campaign as innocent victims of a witch hunt, when all the suspicion was actually justified and a result of the campaign's own actions. Trump's continued refusals to condemn the interference and constant cozying up to Putin doesn't help. Now he's threatening to withdraw American troops from Germany, which is a nice gift to Putin.

The Steele Dossier alleged “a well-developed conspiracy of co-operation". Well guess what. Even though the "conspiracy" was not proven, what actually happened was loads of proven "co-operation". Fox News ignores what actually happened and focuses on what was not proven. How convenient. Trump is still "co-operating" with Putin, and that's very wrong. -- Valjean (talk) 00:35, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

There is zero requirement that a RS tell a complete story. Obviously we give more credibility to the sources that have routinely shown commitment to tell the full story and follow up as needed (NYTimes) but plenty of other high-quality RSes will go to press with 3/4ths of the story and may update as the go along or the like (like CNN). Omission by choice of part of the story is also acceptable but of course this might depends on what's omitted and why. If a story involves a rumor about X and the publication doesn't even attempt to reach X to ask about it, that's iffy, while when a source does try to reach out to X and gets no response, they'll say that. Fox will omit parts of stories, this is not in doubt, and this leads to their bias, but it doesn't change their reliability in a big-picture sense. I would say that if a source is making so many omissions in a story to make it swiss cheese and or to actually make it swing a totally different way by omission of essential details, then we'd have a problem but that's not what Fox does. --Masem (t) 00:50, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

Masem, I agree with everything except the last part. Fox News consistently ignores or downplays anything that is negative about Trump. That's classic pseudoscientific "journalism", because it's agenda-driven reporting. It's not real journalism. It's propaganda. They paint a totally different picture than the picture painted by all the mainstream sources, and that is not by accident. It's not a bug that they ignore "essential details" and end up pushing counterfactual narratives. They do it so egregiously that Shep Smith and Wallace were constantly having to call out the others. That's problematic. -- Valjean (talk) 00:57, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

Ahem, on their front page as of right now we have Pence criticized after meeting with packed room of trump campaign staff ignoring social distancing guidelines, with a big photo on their main page. Adoring nanny (talk) 22:31, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

Yes, they actually document how Democrats criticize Pence. Nothing new about that. Now find examples of them criticizing Trump and you'll have examples of the exception that proves the rule, IOW proof that they rarely do it themselves. Such examples do exist, and they are remarkable, showing that they exceptionally rise to the standards of proper journalism they routinely violate. -- Valjean (talk) 02:03, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

From what I've read throughout this RfC, the opposition to FN is not convincing. Journalistic opinion in the media has become the norm as I've already demonstrated in this month's Signpost Op-Ed. Fox News has covered stories that others in MSM have refused to cover...at least until they basically had no choice but to cover it...Tara Reade comes to mind. As editors, we are responsible for encyclopedic content - not political rhetoric and speculation. Going back and forth over a RS not publishing what we expect per our POV vs another RS publishing what aligns with our POV - despite it being pure speculation in many cases (such as the Steele dossier and the Russian collusion conspiracy theory) - is what RECENTISM actually prevents from being included in our encyclopedia, and helps avoid the criticism we've been seeing in the media regarding WP having a leftist slant when our articles should be touted as being neutral. This problem is growing and it needs resolution for the sake of the project. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 22:56, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

WP:Recentism doesn't prevent the inclusion of that content, although I have repeatedly seen it invoked in that context with the meaning that "we will prevent anything negative about Trump from being included until we see RS reporting only positive content about him, and only then will we allow it." That version of "recentism" is not according to policy. No, we use RS as they appear en masse (IOW when multiple RS report something), and we don't wait until our preferred version appears in RS. What we do is document what RS say now (sometimes waiting a few days to avoid violating "recentism"), and we update and revise content if the narrative and details in RS change, and that is what has been happening with that content you mention. The multiple attempts to completely delete the Steele dossier article have always been against multiple existing policies and have revealed a politically-driven agenda, not a policy-based agenda. -- Valjean (talk) 00:25, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

While we arguably can use the present attitudes of the press en masse and change as time goes along, as you suggest, this is what leads to at least 50% of the problems in the AP2 ArbCom discretionary area because editors are rushing to include the latest commentary about a topic. We'd have a lot smoother editing process overall if NOT#NEWS and RECENTISM were considered to avoid the rush to include media commentary until we have a better idea of how to frame everything about it and the long-term picture. Yes, ultimately we'd get to the same place but one is far less strive-ridden, and deals with things like the issues around Fox's bias, for example. We are writing for the long-term , not the short term (that's Wikinews if you really want that). and that means avoiding certain material that may be readily available in the press "now" until we now how best to write about it "later" from more academic more distant sources. --Masem (t) 22:08, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

Treat the same as The New York Times? This is not a serious !vote and should not be afforded any weight. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 00:01, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
Political diversity is not a factor for reliability. Using extreme neo-Nazi and anarchist blogs would also be politically diverse, but that's irrelevant to their (un-)reliability. — MarkH₂₁^talk 06:40, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

No, but it does show how treating Fox as somehow more biased than (for example) CNN, we harm Wikipedia. Adoring nanny (talk) 11:20, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

Option 1 as a standard American news org. Obviously they have pundits and talkshows, and common sense must be used just like with any source. In his 2014 book Partisan Journalism: A History of Media Bias in the United States, Virginia Tech media professor Jim A. Kuypers wrote that partisan journalism is a very widespread and old phenomenon in the mainstream US news. I would not muddy the waters between reliable and opinionated sources further, and strongly oppose popularity contests of singling out news orgs from a partisan media field for this reason. --Pudeo (talk) 08:50, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
Option 2: This is my first time participating in something like this, so weight it accordingly, but I found more persuasive arguments in favour of anything less than Option 1 which is mainly citing WP:NEWSORG or bothsideism, among other flawed rationales (see the Russia hoax claim or the argument that, along with other news outlets, Fox had the front-row seat at the White House Press Briefing Room; InfoWars and other unreliable news outlets have been invited too). Certainly, I disagree with the current wording of Some editors perceive FOX News to be a biased source whereas others do not; neither affects reliability of the source which should probably reflect the change in recent years to Most editors consider Fox a biased or opinionated source. Some editors advise caution when using this source for controversial statements of fact related to living persons like The Daily Beast (I do not have any opinion yet on whether it should be demoted, I trust the consensus; and I do not think that we should demote it just to compensate for a possible demotion of Fox as a bothsideism). The difference between the two is that, as MarkH21 put it, Fox may now considered to be generally reliable which is different from generally considered to be reliable for the green box and the overcited NEWSORG. I also agree with Goldenshimmer assessment that Fox is closer to the Huffington Post (which is currently yellow) and others mentioned than the AP, The New York Times and Reuters which, if anything and like Wikipedia (for those who claim Wikipedia to have a left bias), have a centrist bias rather than left bias, at best centre-left and mainly on socio-cultural issues. Finally, if we are going to prefer those sources over Fox anyway and we need those sources to confirm whether Fox was reliable or not on a case-by-case analysis, we are already following Option 2.--Davide King (talk) 11:13, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
Option 1 as generally reliable per WP:NEWSORG for factual reporting. Talking head punditry stuff is rarely used in articles and where used is attributed as it should be. an important news source which expands into subject areas other NEWSORGs may not. -- Netoholic @ 16:42, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
~~Option 3~~ - the discussion here is convincing me that this is a terrible source even for news. Option 2 as second choice. If a local affiliate has a news story that's worth noting, it'll be in less tainted sources - David Gerard (talk) 19:55, 10 June 2020 (UTC) Changing this to Option 4, given the deliberate fabrication of news story photos - deliberate fabrication is deprecation material - David Gerard (talk) 10:44, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
Option 2 I would be fine with option 1 also, but from the discussion it seems that there are "additional considerations" as to the division between reporting and editorials. I prefer option 2 because it allows us to make that distinction clear since unlike many other news organizations brought up, their editorials are generally not reliable for information. — Wug·a·po·des 00:04, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
Option 3: better sources are available w/o the risk of running into misinformation or conspiracy theories. If Fox is the only media org covering a certain issue, then it's probably undue anyway. --K.e.coffman (talk) 02:37, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
Option 2: Local affiliate stations are generally reliable, but the Fox News Network has reliability problems when it comes to certain topics such as climate change50, the George Floyd protests51, and the Trump Administration52. I would favor deprecating it as a reliable source for topics on which it has demonstrated a history of misleading coverage. Kaldari (talk) 03:33, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
Option 1 generally reliable as a news org. Yes, they have pundits with a bias that most Wikipedians don't share, but this isn't about that. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 13:30, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
Option 4 FACT: Ofcom in the UK are unlikely to award a licence to Fox News as they are not impartial: "British media regulator Ofcom has concluded that Fox News programs featuring Sean Hannity and Tucker Carlson violated the U.K.’s broadcasting code by breaching impartiality rules...Sky dropped Fox News from its UK lineup in August, but Ofcom has continued to investigate complaints about shows that aired before the channel went dark. The regulator said Monday that both “Tucker Carlson Tonight” and “Hannity” broke the rules on the “due impartiality” expected of news coverage in Britain.²⁰²¹ SethWhales^talk 20:42, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

@Seth Whales: The RfC specifically mentions "as separate from their cable pundits" to avoid confusion and to solely focus on Fox News general reporting. Tucker Carlson and Sean Hannity both fall under the "Cable pundit" classification, and there's no way that anything from their programmes should be cited in wikivoice to begin with, only as attributed opinion under specific circumstances where the comments were found to be independently notable. Hemiauchenia (talk) 20:18, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

The "pundits" and any "news coverage" are inseparable. They may show the same television pictures, but it is the commentary that is all important that goes with it. I remain Option 4 SethWhales^talk 20:42, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

Option 1. We're beating a dead horse at this point, and I think it's time to drop the stick. Yes, Fox is biased. So is almost every other major US news outlet, like NYT, NBC, and CNN. Fox is a standard WP:NEWSORG. JOE BRO 64 21:28, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
Option 1 Fox has its biases, as do all of the networks and the NY Times and WaPo etc. But it is a generally reliable source when reporting factual stories. I realize that Fox's editorial biases are unpopular around here but this never ending attempt to blacklist Fox is getting old. It reminds me of the old expression "the voting shall continue until the correct result is returned." And I for one am concerned about what appears to be an insidious drift towards creating an ideological bubble into which all sources to be considered RS must fall. There is already widespread suspicion among conservatives of a leftwing bias on the project. These endless attacks on Fox News only add fuel to that fire. -Ad Orientem (talk) 22:46, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
Option 1 per numerous arguments showing that Fox News meets all WP:RS criteria for editorial oversight. All news sources have bias, and as long as we distinguish opinion from reporting, Fox is no different from CNN. — JFG ^talk 22:53, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
Option 1 I think that Masem is correct. As far as the news programs go, they are perfectly comparable to CNN, MSNBC, BBC, CBC and other news sources that Wikipedia already uses all the time. Talrolande (talk) 01:18, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
Option 1 per Ad Orientem. This sort of partisanship is disgusting. Chris Troutman (talk) 01:26, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
Option 1 FoxNews definitely meets WP:NEWSORG; and while biased so too are CNN, The Guardian, NYT, MSNBC, etc. but they are allowed. I fear this RfC would be used to get around WP:NPOV. The solution to bias in reporting by a right leaning source is to simply add text sourced to a left leaning source and vice versa. If we go down the slippery slope of banning major right leaning news sources then we will bias our content and gain a reputation of censorship and partisanship and then our article quality will deteriorate and we will be seen to be a biased source that fewer people take seriously. Finally, FoxNews does an enormous amount of reporting on neutral non political matters. Conclusion: right leaning sources are just as welcome as left leaning sources on the NPOV encyclopedia that anyone can edit.--Literaturegeek | T@1k? 01:48, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

Comment: Yes, every other news outlets may have a bias (certainly more centrist bias than the often overused left bias; The Canary and Occupy Democrats are red) but not all biases are the same and they do not affect factual reporting, whether Fox's bias seems to be stronger that it affects its reporting more often that all those news outlets mentioned and this is something to consider. So clearly, if bothsideism is the best rationale one can offer for Option 1 as it is the most cited along with WP:NEWSORG, I am not impressed. There are better more right-leaning sources anyway. A change from Some editors perceive FOX News to be a biased source whereas others do not; neither affects reliability of the source to Most editors consider Fox a biased or opinionated source. Some editors advise caution when using this source for controversial statements of fact related to living persons (even while remaining green) seems to be at least warranted.--Davide King (talk) 08:02, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

Either Option 1 or Option 4 - Every single thing said above in terms of Fox being a WP:NEWSORG is also true of the Daily Mail, the Daily Mail also has an editorial team, it also covers actual news stories, it also has a front-row seat at various events. It also shares all of the DM's vices in terms of tabloidism. The DM ban (let's not try to pretend that it is anything but a ban) was an example of primarily US-based editors finding it easy to deprecate the media of another country, this RFC shows that many of them are not capable of applying the same standards to a source closer to home. Therefore, either Fox is generally reliable as a WP:NEWSORG (but so, within the limits of tabloidism, is the DM) or Fox should be deprecated along with the DM. Personally, I deplore these RFCs on general reliability of WP:NEWSORGs in countries where media can generally operate freely, and think them no better than popularity contests pillorying "bad" media, completely detached from the actual contexts in which editors actually wish to use these sources. FOARP (talk) 09:38, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
Option 1, with a little bit of 2 for US politics. Yes, they have editorial bias, so does pretty much every news outlet. I'm aware that elements of the "woke brigade" want to rule them out of existence. That's not Wikipedia's role. Stifle (talk) 10:57, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
Question: why isn't this decision based on existing academic research instead of opinion Rather than base this decision on opinion it would be helpful to bring in academic studies of media reliability, many professional researchers have spent years collecting evidence on this question. That would give us something to work from and also provide information on if Wikipedia should separate reliability of the website and the TV channel or by subject, e.g Fox News is currently being sued for “knowingly disseminated false, erroneous, and incomplete information”. Wikipedia is based on reliable sources, I suggest it makes sense to decide what reliable sources are through in depth analysis which many people have already done. John Cummings (talk) 12:31, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
- FWIW, that lawsuit has been summarily dismissed, and Fox's side was baced by a trade org that includes CNN and MSNBC in supporting First Amendment speech. --Masem (t) 12:43, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
Option 2: I see a lot of good pieces of evidence above, including the Business Insider report, the Ofcom finding and MJL's comment. I would like to add to the discussion the fact that we are a global encyclopedia and America's "left-wing" and "right-wing" are not that of the world. We here in Europe might find some things said on CNN to be right-wing-only talking points. Those afraid that we may have listed too many left-wing sources as reliable and too many right-wing sources as unreliable might do well to remember that this is a nationality-specific claim. I'd like to suggest some general principles: biased for international reporting, where Fox's Overton window may be wildly off; biased for U.S. politics (including reports on protests and human rights movements); generally factually accurate for events that are not capital P political; use only with care for business-related content (per BD2412's very worrying comment); treat pundits as WP:SPS. Some are discussing Fox's climate change denial but no news media is suitable for scientific content in this way anyway; it is, however, something to bear in mind for e.g. climate change protest coverage, or coverage of a person's views on a scientific issue. — Bilorv (Black Lives Matter) 12:45, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
Option 2 This is the type of thing that needs to be decided on a case by case basis. If, for example, someone was writing/editing an article about say, a plane crash for example, and a Fox News segment about that crash stated the names of the pilots, there would be no reason to assume that that information is made up. This is true of any news station. Empirical claims about objective facts made by a prominent news station are unlikely to have been fabricated. As far as other kinds of claims are concerned, any news station, not just Fox, should be taken with a grain of salt, and only be used as a source if the individual editor makes a judgement call to include it. A Google Scholar search for 'Fox News bias' brings a number of studies, but so does the same search for CNN. Media outlets in general are designed to appeal to a target audience, and are not designed to be entirely factual. ~~According to mediabiasfactcheck.com, Fox and CNN are equally biased.~~ It's not a question of which station is being used as a source, it's just about whether or not a better source can be found. Peer reviewed journals will always take precedence over news stations, regardless of the station. --Puzzledvegetable^{Is it teatime already?} 15:27, 12 June 2020 (UTC) + strikethrough in response to following comment --Puzzledvegetable^{Is it teatime already?} 02:55, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
Puzzledvegetable, WP:MBFC is rated generally unreliable and self-published. It's not a good source for the reliability of other sources. b uidhe 17:54, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

Option 1 The news programs on Fox News are as reliable as the news programs on other cable news channels, such as CNN and MSNBC. I'm going to be very blunt and just state the obvious: Fox News is not much liked around here (on Wikipedia) because of the political slant of the commentary in its opinion shows. That does not render the factual reporting on its news programs any more unreliable than the news reporting on CNN or MSNBC (which, I note, also have a very heavy slant in their opinion programs, albeit a slant that many more Wikipedians feel comfortable with). The commentary programs on Fox News are obviously unreliable for statements of fact, just like the commentary from any opinion column is unreliable for statements of fact. The factual reporting in news articles on foxnews.com is generally reliable. There are political biases in which stories Fox News chooses to cover, just as there are political biases in which stories CNN and MSNBC choose to cover. And for certain categories of information, I would consider all three generally unreliable (e.g., WP:MEDRS content). Why am I comparing Fox News to CNN and MSNBC? Because those two channels are very comparable to Fox News - they're cable news channels with strong political biases and a clear partisan affiliation. Yet I don't think we'll see many calls for them to be considered unreliable, because their political biases better align with the views of most Wikipedians. -Thucydides411 (talk) 19:09, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

Like -Ad Orientem (talk) 19:14, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

Like - ^Atsme _Talk 📧 23:23, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

Like - Urgal (talk) 07:55, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

Like - DoubleCross (‡) 14:22, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

Like - Levivich ^{dubious – discuss} 17:50, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

Option 4. I'd like everyone to see this article from The Seattle Times that shows Fox News digitally altering images to misrepresent the current situation in Seattle. This is not their first act of news manipulation and far from the last. Sounder Bruce 05:26, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
- As noted below: photos like headlines and other material around an article should not be taken as the work of the reporters or editorial desk and should not be used to judge the reliability of the content. Bias, absolutely. --Masem (t) 05:43, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
Interesting. Now before FOX news gets deprecated, Jan 2019, Seattle FOX affiliate KCPQ (Q13 FOX) altered a video of Trump.²² One of the additional questions to this RfC is Do local affiliate stations have a separate reliability to the main Fox News operation? Possibly not, but most likely not when reporting national news since affiliates use their national news affiliation. {{reply to|Can I Log In}}'s talk page! 18:06, 16 June 2020 (UTC)
Option 3: A 2015 fact-check of Fox News pundits by punditfact found that "about 60 percent of the claims checked have been rated Mostly False or worse". In terms of international affairs, Fox News always restates the American government positions uncritically, presenting the administrations' propaganda as facts. An example of this is its coverage of the assassination of Qassem Soleimani in January 2020. 53 54. Mottezen (talk) 07:49, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
Comment Comparing Fox News to CNN or MSNBC is not an argument. Only Fox News is being discussed here. Mottezen (talk) 07:49, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
Option 34 FFS, if they are doing a daily mirror and faking photos that should be a no there and then. That was not "The Colin the Conservative show" that was Fox news (you know the people who fought for lies to be counted as free speech). Sorry that pushes them over into 3 for me, and its borderline 4.Slatersteven (talk) 09:29, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
Option 3 We can't honestly separate out the propagandistic tactics like digitially faking images just because the reporters might not be involved. Whoever makes the decision, whoever implements the dirty work, that's the content they choose to show the world. By their fruits shall ye know them. XOR'easter (talk) 16:11, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
Option 3 at least and preferably Option 4 Reporting rumor as fact and not even bothering to delinieate between the two as well as faking pics and editing other videos to distort what happned is beyond the pale. MarnetteD|Talk 17:58, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
Option 3 a news organisation that recieves talking points from a Republican adminstration that pedals in conspiracy theories an obsfucation. Acousmana (talk) 18:54, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
Option 1. It's my understanding that the news stories reported by Fox News can normally also be confirmed by reporting in other sources whose reliability is less controversial. For example, the lead story currently on FoxNews.com is "Seattle police chief and mayor at loggerheads over handling of George Floyd protests, autonomous area". For comparison, see the article on KOMO-TV's website (the Seattle ABC network affiliate), "Mayor Durkan, SPD Chief Best put on united front in public, but tensions remain". The Fox News article may emphasize certain aspects of the story more than other news sources might, but that does not make it inaccurate. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 20:59, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
That's pretty much the opposite of how it goes with a site given to fabrication, like Fox News - the non-fabricated stories also being findable in non-fabricating news sites was part of the justification to deprecate the WP:DAILYMAIL - David Gerard (talk) 21:35, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
No evidence has been presented of Fox News fabricating the news parts of stories from the news desk. Reporting that has been fixed via errate, yes (but that's eexpect), and tclear evidence of bias due to which angle they take in cover but which does not eliminate a source from being an RS. But intentional fabrication that has never been corrected or addressed , like there was with the DM and Brietbart cases, has yet to be shown. --Masem (t) 21:47, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
@Masem: Fox News fabricated quotes of John Kerry in 2004, see these stories in The Guardian ²³ and The New York Times ²⁴Hemiauchenia (talk) 21:52, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

Which, as your ref points out, Fox apologized and corrected, expected of RSes when mistakes are made. We're talking cases where , in the situation of DM, they falsified quotes and when challenged, said nothing, and didn't change anything. It was obvious DM wanted to keep the fabrication. Now, we can play the hypothetical thought game if Fox "intentionally" used the misattributed quotes with plans to revoke later if they were challenged, but we can't make that presumption without further evidence of this. There's nothing to objectively doubt their rational of "fatique" that lead to the misuse of those quotes. --Masem (t) 22:00, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

There was also that ridiculous case in which the Daily Mail had two articles prepared for the Amanda Knox verdict before the verdict was even announced and accidentally published the wrong one, complete with fabricated quotes, events, and everything. I don't think Fox can even get close to that. JOE BRO 64 22:27, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

Option 1. Photos and headlines should not be relied upon regardless of the source. Furthermore Fox's talk shows/opinion pieces are already treated differently than its core news reporting, which is generally reliable.--Tdl1060 (talk) 22:30, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
Option 2 generally but Option 3 for all politics and science subjects Fox News pundits/opinion pieces should not be considered reliable and should be deprecated across the board (they don't appear to be used all that much), but given the deterioration of the reliability of Fox News over the last ten years and the linked examples of editorial direction to downplay science and support Trump's lies, all Fox News citations about science or politics should be attributed in-text at a minimum ie "According to Fox News,...". Based on their demonstrated bias, the weight given to Fox News news reports should be significantly reduced. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:20, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

Option 4 FOX News's coverage of the Seattle protests has been fake news at best. Their article of armed gunmen in the Autonomous Zone had Photoshopped images, as exposed in a CNN Business expose ²⁵. While it is photos, the photoshopped headline was significant enough to be outed in another media outlet, and therefore should be taken into consideration for being fully deprecated. BrythonLexi (talk) 13:16, 14 June 2020 (UTC) — BrythonLexi (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
Option 3: Per Aquillion, Snooganssnoogans, and Guy and others. The is media bias and then the is fake news and clearly unreliable for factual reporting such as the seattle protests, covid-19 and the riduclous reporting that turned the Birmingham, the UKs second largest city into muslim controlled no-go area . The news service needs to clean up its act if we are going to treat with confidence as a reliable source. ~ BOD ~ ^TALK 16:01, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
Option 5: If inclusion in WP hinges on whether reporting by a single NEWSORG is reliable then you've already failed. Remove and replace where acadmeic sources are more appropriate, cede AP2 to the POV pushers—readers can't trust that content anyway—and wait until editors start listening to Masem. fiveby(zero) 17:02, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
Option 1 for news, Option 2/3 for commentary depending on which pundit is involved. The weight/focus given to certain topics is perhaps not agreeable; but looking at articles individually, nothing suggests a lack of editorial control which would jeopardize editorial control, as Masem points out. When readers look at citations to Fox News articles, they are looking at individual news articles, not the network/website as a whole. feminist | freedom isn't free 02:30, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
Option 1 for news and politics, Option 3 for science-related matters. Ten years ago, I would have selected Option 3 for the entire news organization, but the last decade has witnessed a slow but steady decline in reporting standards across the Western world, so in that sense, Fox is no longer any better or worse than other major networks such as CNN or MSNBC in terms of reliability and impartiality. That being said, I don't think Fox should generally be considered a WP:RS when it comes to science-related matters, given that it has consistently provided a platform to climate change deniers and often runs stories suggesting that climate change is not caused by human activity. Amanuensis Balkanicus (talk) 05:13, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
Option 1 for news and politics. They were the only major media to cover the Tara Reid situation while the others tried to bury it. Fox has a clear conservative bias, but as mentioned above, there is no such thing as bias-free political reporting. It needs to be handled on a case-by-case basis.Jacona (talk) 15:50, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

Odd, as we do not even use Fox news in her bio, so what is this "situation" that is so important we do not mention in?Slatersteven (talk) 16:02, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

Their Tara Reade reporting is actually a reason to NOT use Fox News. They immediately jumped on the situation (a BLP and NOTNEWS violation here), without getting more clarity on the subject, because they will immediately grab and exaggerate anything that smears Biden and helps Trump. That's their reflex and job, to smear, not report news accurately. That's why they were the first to write much about it.

Other RS were more circumspect and cautious, waiting for more clarity and evidence. Fox News was acting like the National Enquirer, and lots of what they originally wrote is now seen to be outdated and wrong. Of all sources, Fox News and the National Enquirer are the types we should wait a long time with before using. Fox News should be deprecated, just like the Enquirer.

In fact, try comparing how Fox News ignored and downplayed Trump's boasting/confession of his habit and methodology of non-consensually sexually assaulting women, and their ignoring and downplaying of all the credible allegations by numerous women who experienced that and did not want it, and then compare their reporting on Tara Reade. That comparison shows they are not "news" but "propaganda". -- Valjean (talk) 16:17, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

Valjean It's concerning that you are printing untruths here, and have refused to strike or support your comments regarding Fox's Reade reporting (below). Fox was not the only media to report on the Reade allegation early on, they were joined by New York Mag, The Intercept, Vox, The Economist, Newsweek, The Guardian, and other outlets. petrarchan47 คุ ก 03:57, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

Ohh, Tara Reade Mmmmmm, the story that was being " not ignored" as early as 2019 by "not Fox news".Slatersteven (talk) 16:24, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

Valjean, what Tara Reade reporting from Fox is now seen to be outdated and wrong? petrarchan47 คุ ก 22:41, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

Valjean Sorry, Valjean, when you have a chance could you please enlighten us regarding the alleged shoddy reporting from Fox. Given the focus of this RfC, your statement and support for it are highly relevant and will significantly effect my !Vote. Thanks, petrarchan47 คุ ก 19:20, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

Petrarchan47 so sorry for this late reply. I get a lot of notifications and yours dropped through the cracks, so to speak, so thanks for the ping. My concern was with their biased coverage of the story as it developed, which is part of their pattern, a feature, not a bug. They were pretty breathless in their support of Reade in the beginning, and unlike mainstream sources, they did not properly cover all the compromising information that later surfaced which destroyed her credibility. That had to come from mainstream media which looks at all sides of a story. This type of extremely biased coverage from Fox News makes sense, as they are Trump's main propaganda station (but OANN is taking over that role) and thus will also push anything which tarnishes Biden, but not do the same with anything that tarnishes Trump.

Their bias is no longer just the type of ordinary bias which most news sources have, but, since their slide to the extreme right-wing in the last eight years (their strong racist reaction to Obama seemed to trigger it), it affects their reliability. The bias of a news source is not a reason to oppose its use, but extreme bias does affect accuracy, and that is of concern. They have become quite extreme, and their web and TV versions are now rated as slightly more and slightly less reliable than Breitbart, which is above InfoWars, but that's still pretty bad. They have slid down from the previous version of the most accurate media bias chart available. -- Valjean (talk) 23:48, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

I was hoping for actual sources to support your claim that Foxs reporting is "now seen to be outdated and wrong". Wrong? Citation needed. Oudated? You'll need a source for that too. Opinions carry no weight. Some people have assumed that if she lied elsewhere, and if her ex-landlords don't like her, she and all the corroboration somehow vanish. If she lied to get into law school, then she wasn't assaulted in '93? I've seen no RS assert this. You have claimed Fox engaged in innacurate reporting in the Reade case. This is a serious claim made in a formal request for comment, I request that if you can't show an example of false Reade reporting, please strike your comment (given the venue). I also disagree with your assessment of their coverage, and note you've provided no examples. Many of your claims require a comparison to make sense. I would invite you to compare CNN's coverage of Kavanaugh with Foxs Reade coverage (that's breathless). I would also invite you to compare Fox with NYT. Both sides are partisan and report in ways that serve their interests. Banning or downgrading only one side violates WP:NPOV. petrarchan47 คุ ก 02:20, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

Option 1 for news; any punditry should be treated as opinion. There is no evidence of anything problematic about Fox's reporting when compared with Wikipedia's favorite source, the NYT. I echo Blueboar's take, and so many others, especially those who raised concerns:

I agree with every word from Peter Gulutzan in his Defective question section below. I don't believe the instructions at the top of this page ("Please be sure to include examples of editing disputes that show why you are seeking comment on the source") were adequately addressed (00:25, 3 July 2020).
DGG is right: Readers expect to see information from all sides of an issue at Wikipedia, and if we do not use the best available sources on all sides we are rejecting NPOV, in favor of advocacy DGG (07:27, 23 June 2020)
S Philbrook is spot on: a handful of errors do not remotely qualify as failing a "reputation for accuracy and fact checking". If that was all it took, we wouldn't have any sources qualifying as RS. S Philbrick (15:12, 6 July 2020)
Springee makes many good points, especially: Externally calling Fox unreliable will be clearly viewed by some as a partisan action and a case where the wolves outnumbered the sheep while voting on what's for dinner. That will not be good for Wikipedia. If we can't say how treating Fox as reliable has hurt Wikipedia then it seems clear this is more about silencing those who we dislike vs anything else. Springee (14:52, 6 July 2020)

Downgrading Fox News would mean that some topics and stories would not be covered at all by the encyclopedia. Masem asks does Fox provide any unique content that cannot be sourced from other RSes (18:18, 20 June 2020)

Yes. Then and now: How evidence in Kavanaugh case compares with Biden accusation Fox is not the only source to compare the allegations against Judge Kavanaugh and Joe Biden, but all the other sources that do have been disallowed by Wikipedia. Left-of-Fox sources have not looked at all the facts side by side. As a result, everyone believes the exact opposite of the truth, which is that Biden's accuser, Tara Reade, has much more corroborating evidence** than Christine Blasey Ford, who actually has negative corroboration (all the people she said were at the party have denied her claims.****). The two cases are treated very differently by Wikipedia. Downgrading Fox would not help. Larry Sanger has called us out for abandoning NPOV, and suggests Wikipedians "admit that their notion of what is credible does, in fact, bias them against conservatism..." ~~19:41, 16 June 2020~~ petrarchan47 คุ ก 07:00, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

3.7 -- It is a propaganda outlet which occasionally broadcasts news. EllenCT (talk) 20:54, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

That's exactly what I have concluded about the NYT, and I have proof. Many editors have mentioned that really there are no corporate media outlets that aren't partisan nowadays. Should we downgrade them all? Won't eradicating all sources from one side of the equation result in a horribly biased encyclopedia? petrarchan47 คุ ก 19:25, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

Option 3: In 2015, President Reagan's former domestic policy advisor, Bruce Bartlett, published his detailed analysis of Fox News wherein Bartlett concludes Fox News is a "Propaganda Machine." 55. In his analysis, Barlett reports on several studies that found "Fox viewers are misinformed" and are "more likely to have factually untrue beliefs than those who receive their news from mainstream sources." In my view, even if you look only at their alleged 'news shows," Fox is a propaganda outlet. For example, on their alleged 'news shows:'

Just last week Fox News finally removed their "digitally altered video" of their coverage of the protests in Seattle after they admitted the cities in their video were not of Seattle at all. 56 57 58. Fox News' "deceitful tactic was called out by The Seattle Times. The local newspaper reported that when it asked Fox News about the images, the network removed them. Fox News' depiction of the demonstration mirrors much of right-wing media's attempt to portray it as menacing." 59
On Fox News Special Report w/Bret Baier: Bret Baier displayed a racist graphic alleging that the Stock Market gets a big boost when black men are murdered or beaten to near death. After criticism, Bret Baier actually had the racist-nerve to justify producing his racist graphic but did apologize for airing his racist graphic “It was used to illustrate market reactions to historic periods of civil unrest and should have never aired." 60 61
Fox News' Martha MacCallum: On the rapidly spreading, deadly coronavirus, Martha MacCallum told her Fox viewers that re-opening the U.S. economy is more important than mitigating the spread of coronavirus, 62 Recently Marth MacCallum told her viewers that the May job's report is vindication for all of Trump supporters who protested with their assault weapons against state's that shut-down to mitigate the spread of coronavirus. 63 In mid-May, Martha MacCallum cut away from coronavirus coverage to pushTrump's Obamagate conspiracy onto her Fox viewers.
Fox News' Bill Hemmer: On the 2018 midterms, to his Fox viewers, Bill Hemmer equated Democrat voters to Saddam Hussein supporters when Hemmer compared Democratic voter turnout in the midterm elections to “Saddam Hussein numbers.” 64 In a March 25, 2020 interview, Bill Hemmer did not challenge Trump and did not correct Trump's lies for Fox viewers when Trump as on Hemmer's show lying and misrepresenting facts about the coronavirus. 65.
***
Fox News' Ed Henry: When the public learned of the whistleblower report against Trump, Ed Henry told his Fox viewers that the whistleblower was acting with “political bias” against Trump. 66 Ed Henry recently told his Fox viewers that other media were spreading lies about Trump tear-gassing peaceful protesters in DC for a photo-op. Ed Henry said, “We should also point out though that some of the reporting from a couple nights ago was false, which is that there was all of this talk that really spun this up into a controversy, that pepper spray and whatnot was used,” 67
Fox News' Shannon Bream pushed anti-Transgender propaganda to her Fox viewers and did not challenge two of her guests when they "made false and dangerous claims that protections for transgender people put other Americans at risk." 68 Other times, Shannon Bream 'misgenders' and stigmatizes transgender athletes to her Fox viewers and described JayCee Cooper as a “biological male, now identifying as female” and described NCAA track & field runner CeeCee Telfer as “a biological male who now identifies as a woman.”
Fox News' Sandra Smith: During Sandra Smith's interview of K.T. McFarland, McFarland equated Rep. Adam Schiff to Hitler's propagandist, Joseph Goebbles. Instead of telling her Fox viewers to ignore McFarland for equating a Jewish man to Hitler's propagandist, Sandra Smith simply said, "K.T McFarland, great to have you on this morning, thanks so much." 69 Sandra Smith lied to her Fox viewers and falsely claimed that Trump wants key witnesses like Mick Mulvaney and John Bolton to testify in the Impeachment hearings even though Trump blocked them and all witnesses from testifying during the entire impeachment process. 70

Based off these examples, and more that I did not put here, Option 3 is my choice BetsyRMadison (talk) 17:59, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

Your list of critical opinions above that you used as the reason to demote a generally RS needs to be cited to generally reliable sources or better, not biased opinions published in questionable or biased sources like HuffPo, Mediaite, Glaad, Daily Caller, Media Matters, and a few competitor sources. Also, the criticism and commentary you added about the photo illlustration and photoshopped images is noncompliant with WP:RECENTISM and WP:BREAKING, especially considering the images were retracted by Fox which is a sign of credibility. The same applies to the graph that was used without context - apologies were made by two Fox news anchors including Bret Baier. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 01:02, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

More examples here. François Robere (talk) 10:04, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

These are primarily examples of Fox having incorrect opinions rather than incorrect facts. Having an opinion that it's more important to open the economy than it is to contain the coronavirus doesn't make a source unreliable. Neither is comparing your political opponents to Saddam Hussein or Nazis. Chess (talk) (please use {{ping|Chess}} on reply) 06:07, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

No, they're not? I explicitly addressed conspiracy theories,²⁶²⁷²⁸²⁹³⁰³¹³² false equivalences on scientific consensus,³³³⁴³⁵³⁶³⁷³⁸ misleading graphics,³⁹⁴⁰ and ethical problems³⁴⁴¹ affecting their news dept, and much of it is backed not by "primary examples", but by expert opinions, analyses and even studies. François Robere (talk) 10:59, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

Recommended reading WP:ASSERT. Erik Wemple which you cited more than once is a media critic for WaPo which is not unlike an opinion editor. As for the scholarly links, they are better sources but they don't magically turn opinions into facts. The author of the research paper you cited, Patrick C. Meirick, is an associate professor, not tenured, and his citations are not impressive. Scholars have biases, too. For example, this article speaks to a study titled The Social and Political Views of American Professors which surveyed 1,417 full-time faculty members. Read the key findings. dding multiple links to sources doesn't magically turn opinions into fact or tell us their view is the correct one, and all others are wrong. That is not our job as editors, and is certainly not NPOV. We still have to consider all relevant views per WP:BALANCE. The obvious result of this RfC is that we should practice closer compliance with WP:RECENTISM and WP:NOTNEWS as it relates to ALL news sources, especially those that are biased, use anonymous sources that cannot be corroborated, and journalistic opinion to spin a story using clickbait sensationalism and misleading headlines. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 17:20, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

Erik Wemple which you cited more than once Yes, he's one out of the fifteen sources that I cited above. I assume you've no objections to the others?

a media critic for WaPo which is not unlike an opinion editor And..? There's nothing inherently wrong about being an analyst versus a reporter. The only reason you'd think he's less he's less of a journalist is because you're so used to what Fox does, that you forgot that others do it differently.71 PS - Wemple has two degrees in governance, speaks four languages and writes for a paper of record that won 69 Pulitzers, so presumably he's a tad better than Tucker Carlson.72

As for the scholarly links, they are better sources but they don't magically turn opinions into facts. The author... is an associate professor, not tenured, and his citations are not impressive Glass houses etc. Do you have any relevant sources of your own? Some random study on American academics that doesn't even mention Fox is hardly pertinent here. François Robere (talk) 21:32, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

Options 2, 3 and 4. At the very least Fox News news needs to be marked as a biased source and all content needs to be carefully considered through this lens, so option 2 should apply across the board. They should be regarded as deprecated for US political content (fairly broadly interpeted) including climate change, race relations in the United States and gun control in the United States, except for WP:ABOUTSELF references. Option 3 should apply for content that is peripherally or indirectly related to US politics, including UK politics. Thryduulf (talk) 18:15, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
Option 1 Fox News is about as reliable as the New York Times or CNN. It is important to distinguish their talk shows and general reporting. The general reporting is much more reliable than the opinion pieces and the talk shows. The talk shows and opinion pieces are about as reliable as the New York Times opinion pieces. Scorpions13256 (talk) 18:57, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
Option 4. As the history of Fox News as an organization demonstrates, it was invented, designed, developed, and produced with the sole purpose of undermining the practice of journalism due to its fundamental belief that reality has a liberal bias. You can read this for yourself in any number of historical works about the organization. The idea for Fox News came out of the conservative right-wing’s disgust with how Nixon was treated by the press. Vowing that they would never allow facts and evidence to interfere with reality ever again, Fox was created as a parallel world, where conservative facts replaced “liberal” ones, mostly by engaging in open distortion, fabrication, and wholesale lying. The fact that they sometimes regurgitate Associated Press stories does not save them from their fate or wipe the slate clean. Fox is not a news organization. It has never been fair and balanced. It has never been the slightest bit interested in reporting and letting the audience decide. It is a giant lie, and has operated as a liar, from the day it opened its doors. It exists solely to undermine truth, to impede the rule of law based on the body of observable facts, data, and evidence, and to constrain the democratic impulse of informing the electorate for which journalism as a practice and a discipline takes its role as a function of a responsible citizen. There is no other option than option 4. Viriditas (talk) 22:31, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
Option 4, or failing that Option 3. At best, Fox is a highly partisan source which misrepresents through distortion and selectivity. At worst, it publishes outright falsehoods. The problem here is not that Fox is right-leaning, but that is a purveyor of bad journalism. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 23:00, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
Option 2 for straight "sky is blue" reporting, Option 3 for most pundits, Option 4 for certain folks including but not limited to Laura Ingraham and Sean Hannity. In other words, it's a case by case basis. We can't apply a one-size fits all. Heck, for straight sports reporting without editorial commentary (their horse racing is decent), they are almost to Option 1 (much as I really hate to admit it). And I say all of the above as a known US liberal Democrat. JMO. But the thing I'm seeing here is a lot of people starting to personalize this discussion, and that's inappropriate Montanabw^(talk) 16:44, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
Option 1 or Option 2 - the television news offered by Fox and similar outlets is not reliable for anything but opinion. However Fox News stories online should generally be expected to be reliable for fact, understanding that Fox in general has a pro-Republican bias. This RfC is a great example of Perennial Sources List mission creep: no longer providing commentary or guidance on wholly unreliable sources, and instead serving as an excuse to deprecate news sources with undesirable political opinion. This leads me to think we need to look hard at the perennial sources list and what exactly it’s being used for. -Darouet (talk) 03:00, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
Option 2, generally - Their reporting is mostly factual (apart from their punditry), but especially when it comes to international affairs, it is sloppy on the details, and therefore not completely reliable. See this article for an example. TucanHolmes (talk) 14:18, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
I'd say Option 2 - Fox News is a conservative news channel. According to NewsGuard (the browser extension), Fox News struggles in "gathering and presenting information responsibly" and "handling the difference between news and opinion responsibly"⁴². So yes, Fox News is generally reliable, but it is important to read the article first for bias before using it. They are not wrong - they just sometimes are misleading. Of course, we have slip-ups every now and then, so we should still be careful when drawing news from just one source and content forks. A a s i m 20:46, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

~~Option 2~~ I would really like to see this rating changed. A source can put a lot of bias into an article simply by the choice of wording. For example, in one article Fox said a politician was having an "extramarital affair" when in truth he had been estranged and not lived with his wife for over ten years. Or perhaps here: 73 where they report on a new Montana oil pipeline and out of the blue they throw in the fact that in a neighboring state the government spent $38 million policing protests over that pipeline (Dakota Access). Fox does this sort of manipulation in environmental articles and they do it in their political articles as well. And BTW, I'm not going to argue with any editor that insists that other outlets are biased as well. I have found Fox to be much worse. Gandydancer (talk) 03:27, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

I think it would have been helpful to have mentioned that these two examples are only from my previous week of work here, not because they are the most egregious ones I have seen. I also should have noted that the political example was about two Democrats, one black and the other black/Indian. The Montana pipeline is from a search of a few days ago as I was attempting to update the Dakota Access Pipeline and related articles. Gandydancer (talk) 18:22, 20 June 2020 (UTC) I have been closely following this discussion and carefully comparing FOX news articles to the other outlets and it's much worse than I thought. For example, today Trump passed his 200th judge and the major news outlets covered it with some also mentioning none of them have been black but FOX did not even publish a news article but rather published an opinion article titled "Trump's 200th judge confirmed -- federal judiciary has been transformed, promises kept by this guy 74 in which he discussed the horrors we face if Trump is not reelected. True it's an opinion piece, but this is a clear demonstration of extreme bias in reporting. I'm changing my decision to Option 3.

Mixed, depends on a whole lot of things.
The TV news doesn't usually lie and on matters that aren't of interest to US conservatives, I'd generally believe what it says. On matters of interest to US conservatives such as climate change or gun control, it still doesn't lie, but it has problems with agenda setting and it misleads by omission. Like all the US news media I've ever seen, its foreign coverage is dismal, but I don't think that's bias; US journalists rarely understand the rest of the world.
The website is significantly less reliable than the news. Again this is not usually untruth so much as topic choice, omission and framing, but unlike the TV news, editors on this page have been able to cite clear examples of faked photos on the website.
The pundits and talking heads are a disgrace. They should never be used as sources for anything other than Fox News' opinion.—S Marshall T/C 15:43, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

I would take it a step further... I don’t think the views of the pundits and other talking heads should be used for anything other than for their own opinions. Sean Hannity’s views are different from Tucker Carlsons, which are both different from Greg Gutfeld’s. So we can not say which represents the views of “Fox News”. We should attribute to Hannity, Carlson, or Gutfeld. Blueboar (talk) 16:23, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

Fox News decides who its pundits are, so Fox News needs to accept responsibility for what they say. I feel that it's right to blame the speaker and absolve the platform if, and only if, the platform doesn't choose the speaker.—S Marshall T/C 17:01, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

But WHICH speaker represents the views of the platform? The various pundits and talking heads often hold wildly different (and sometimes diametrically opposing) views. Blueboar (talk) 18:49, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

Option 4, a view mandated by consideration of a high-quality academic study: Benkler Y, Faris R and Roberts H (2018) Network Propaganda: Manipulation, Disinformation, and Radicalization in American Politics. New York, NY: Oxford University Press. Sustained deliberate distortion is the Fox business model. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 18:52, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

Zdroj:

Navigácia: Veda >

Analytika
Antropológia
Aplikované vedy
Bibliometria
Dejiny vedy
Encyklopédie
Filozofia vedy
Forenzné vedy
Humanitné vedy
Knižničná veda
Kryogenika
Kryptológia
Kulturológia
Literárna veda
Medzidisciplinárne oblasti
Metódy kvantitatívnej analýzy
Metavedy
Metodika

Metodológia vedy
Náboženstvo a veda
Náučná literatúra
Podvody vo vede
Popularizácia vedy
Potravinárstvo
Prírodné vedy
Pseudoveda
Scientometria
Spoločenské vedy
Teórie
Teatrológia
Technické vedy
Technika
Terminológia
Umenie
Výskum

Veda
Veda a technika podľa štátu
Veda a technika podľa kontinentu
Veda a technika podľa roka
Veda v kozme
Vedci
Vedecká literatúra
Vedecké databázy
Vedecké experimenty
Vedecké konferencie
Vedecké metódy
Vedecké ocenenia
Vedecké organizácie
Vedecké parky
Vedeckí spisovatelia
Vzdelávanie
Záhady

Príbuzné výrazy:

Text je dostupný za podmienok Creative Commons Attribution/Share-Alike License 3.0 Unported; prípadne za ďalších podmienok.
Podrobnejšie informácie nájdete na stránke Podmienky použitia.

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

29

30

31

32

33

34

35

36

37

38

39

40

41

42