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1.2.3 Religion

Disrespecting my religion or treating it like a human invention of some kind, is religious discrimination, inaccurate, or wrong. And what about beliefs I feel are wrong, or against my religion, or outdated, or non-scientific?

NPOV policy often means presenting multiple points of view. This means providing not only the points of view of different groups today, but also different groups in the past.

Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. One important task for encyclopedias is to explain things. In the case of human beliefs and practices, explanation encompasses not only what motivates individuals who hold these beliefs and practices, but an account of how such beliefs and practices came to be and took shape. Wikipedia articles on history and religion draw from a religion's sacred texts. But Wikipedia articles on history and religion also draw from modern archaeological, historical and scientific sources.

Some adherents of a religion might object to a critical historical treatment of their own faith, claiming that this somehow discriminates against their religious beliefs. They might prefer that the articles describe their faith as they see it, which might be from a non-historical perspective (e.g. the way things are is the way things have always been; any differences are from heretical sects that don't represent the real religion.) Their point of view must be mentioned, yet note that there is no contradiction. NPOV policy means that Wikipedia editors ought to say something like this: Many adherents of this faith believe X, which they believe that members of this group have always believed; however, due to the acceptance of some findings (say which) by modern historians and archaeologists (say which), other adherents (say which) of this faith now believe Z.

An important note on using the term "fundamentalism": In studies of religion, this word has a very specific meaning. Wikipedia articles about religion should only use this word in one of its technical senses.

When using this word, Wikipedians should take care to explain what is meant by this term in order to avoid causing unnecessary offense or misleading the reader. Wikipedia articles should not use it to mean "strongly-held belief", "opposition to science", or "religious conservatism", as it is often used in the popular press. As religion is a controversial topic, Wikipedia editors should be prepared to see some of these articles edited due to what may seem minor quibbles.

HI guys ,

Well this is the first major reformation of this article . Open for dicuussation, as always

removed the intro section , Islam not only means slavery , secondly this isnt relevant here , since being a slave of Allah , & being a slave are totally different concepts .

Muhammad's slaves.......authentic sources required  !!!!

Slaves in Islamic history , this whole thing is discuued in slavery article . No need to repeat the same thing again & again.

Not any more, someone cut out islam section in a slavery article an replaced it with mutch shorter, "by te way" 'Middle East'. Now this information is not anywere in wiki.

Sexual slavery .... again authentic sources required about what traditional madhabs say .

Regarding what has been happening in different muslim majority regions , the right place is slavery article, sice slavery going on in all the places of the world is discussed there .

This article is specific to slavery in Islam. A lot of the content once was in the Islam article and the group consensus was move it to its own article. I predicted back then that if we did that then the next step would be that the Muslim activists in Wikipedia would then proceed to cut it down to nothing. ( Like Farhansher just did to the slavery article , erasing any mention of Islam )This of course is exactly as I predicted. The next step will be to re-insert the article into the Islam article since the agreed upon solution failed.--Urchid 1 July 2005 23:52 (UTC)

I've reverted the edits by 65.139.80.56, who I'm assuming is also CltFn (talk · contribs), Diglewop (talk · contribs), and Urchid (talk · contribs), because his/her version is highly POV and badly written. However, the replacement is also POV in that it tries to present the opposite picture of slavery in Islam, whereas what's needed is something in the middle, with references to authoritative sources. I may try to do a copy edit if I have time. With that in mind, in the intro it talks about slavery in Rome, Greece, and Egypt, which I'm familiar with, but also in Jewish societies. Which Jewish societies are being referred to, and does anyone have a source? SlimVirgin ^(talk) July 2, 2005 03:44 (UTC)

Well some of the stuff I have copied from some sites , others I have searched in Hadeeth data bases . This jewish part was again on one of the sites . So if U think it is wrong , feel free to remove it .

Actually the condition the article was in , I had no other choice to write a totally new one , very POV version of it . And ofcourse , I would love to have some neutral person to work on it .

Some important things I would like to discuss

1 . As the link in slavery page says , this article was supposed to be " views of Islam on Slavery " , & not "muslims & slavery" . So I added all verses & ahadeeth regarding the subject .Because every association of muslims with slavery has been discussed in slavery article , so there is no ned to repeat the same stuff .

2 . There is no such article as Christianity & slavery or Hinduism & slavery , its important to understand why it was needed to start an article for Islam & slavery . Its because nobody ever inserted their POV in these religion's main pages , while there R some people here who are illeterate in Islam , & who like to make WP their diary of phobia . Were christians/christianity never associated with slavery ??

3 . This guy Urchid also inserted his POV in slavery article , thank God there are some neutral people there . That article discusses slavery with respect to geography & not religion . NOw , why was it considered necessary by some people to insert the name of Islam there . Do we see any reference to christianity in Slavery in Europe or Slavery in Americas ?? This is a big Question & I need some answers . Why cant it just be Slavery in MIddle East & Slavery in Africa ??

4 . As I have asked above , so I ask in the end , feel free to insert any information that is available on any authentic , neutral site . But no phobia plz !!! And see the pages associated with other Abrahamic religions , b4 inserting controversial stuff .

Thanks .

I agree with you completely. The existence of this article, and the spirit and manner in which it was written originally, is a product of the strong POV of its creator. We have to clean it up, or put it up for VfD, or find a way to merge anything salvageable elsewhere. I don't have sufficient knowledge to make it encyclopedic. I also have to avoid doing any substantial editing because I've taken admin action in relation to it. SlimVirgin ^(talk) July 2, 2005 19:40 (UTC)

This article is about Islam and slavery , it is specific to Islam. This is not a SLAVERY article it is an article on slavery within Islam and do not confuse me with those all those other users.--Urchid 2 July 2005 15:14 (UTC)

Are you saying you're not CltFn? But you're definitely 65.139.80.56, are you not?

I'm not clear about the point of your reply. Regardless of whether it's about Islam and slavery, or just slavery, it's a badly written personal essay, and it violates WP:NPOV, WP:NOR, and Wikipedia:Cite sources. SlimVirgin ^(talk) July 2, 2005 18:34 (UTC)

No I am not CltFn but I did do a revert once as 65.139.80.56 before logging in --Urchid 3 July 2005 13:57 (UTC)

You're not CltFn, but you are 65.139.80.56? That's interesting, because that lies within the same address range as CltFn's IP address, which means we have two people editing Wikipedia with the same strong anti-Islam POV, who write in the same style, make the same spelling mistakes, and live in the same area. SlimVirgin ^(talk) July 3, 2005 16:28 (UTC)

Like I told you I use dial up , and stop your secret police game which has nothing to do with an encyclopedia.--Urchid 3 July 2005 17:02 (UTC)

I have to agree with SlimVirgin and Farhansher. The version to which Urchid was reverting was little better than a poorly-organized laundry list of various times and places in which Muslims owned or traded slaves. It ignored the Muslim world outside the Middle East and Africa (i.e. the Indian subcontinent, Central Asia, the Pacific Rim, Spain. . .) and skimmed over the religious and legal perspectives on slavery—which ought to be the primary focus of this article—in a couple of sentences. The general effect was to present slavery in the regions it discussed as a religious, rather than an economic, phenomenon. It further (and this criticism applies equally to the rewrite) failed to address the use of military slaves such as Mamluks and saqaliba, which was (as I recall) the only uniquely Islamic form of slavery. —Charles P. (Mirv) 3 July 2005 16:06 (UTC)

regarding SlimVirgin's comment about Jewish societies at the top of this section: the Hebrew Bible and the Talmud both contain descriptions and regulations of slavery, which indicates that it was practiced both before and after the Babylonian exile. See the Jewish Encyclopedia on slaves and slavery and the book by Catherine Hezser. However, I don't think there's any need for reference to specific societies in the introduction of this article, just a note that slavery was prevalent throughout the ancient world. Judaism and slavery would be the place to discuss slavery regulations among the ancient Jews.

Come to think of it, though, Jewish views of slavery (or . . .laws regarding. . ., . . .attitudes towards. . ., etc.) would probably be a better title, not least because it would be less likely to become a stomping ground for anti-Semitic theories about Jews and the Atlantic slave trade. In the same vein, what about retitling this article similarly, e.g. Islamic views of slavery? That would help keep the material on slavery in which Muslims were somehow involved where it belongs, in its temporal, historical, geographical, and economic contexts. —Charles P. (Mirv) 3 July 2005 17:54 (UTC)

I have stumbled upon this article and discussion and agree that for conventional purposes that Islam slave trade history, which I do believe almost every religion and country/state can stake a claim in, should be part of the slavery and/or Islam article. This is an encyclopedia, not a ranting ground. If I can hear a fair arguement for keeping this article, I'll listen. But theres no reason to single out an entire group of people. -Chrisc112

The POV expressed in the present version of this article as posted by Anonymous editor is an apologia. I have written a more exhaustive article entitled Slavery in Abrahamic religions that covers also slavery in Islam. If this article is to be kept it must be revised. Neither the original article nor the present version are neutral. Since this topic is already covered in Slavery, there is not point keeping a different entry dedicated to slavery in Islam. -Independenza

Wow, not only is this a poorly written article but it is a strong POV. It talks about freeing slaves, kind treatment of slaves, freeing slaves, and an apologetic version of why slaves still exist. Where to even begin? Barneygumble 8 July 2005 13:41 (UTC)

It's certainly poorly written, and it's difficult to see why it merits a separate article. Slavery in Abrahamic religions is also pretty poorly written, but given that it exists, could this be merged with and made a redirect to it? --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 20:04, 9 July 2005 (UTC)

This article i sbeyond hope. In an encyclopedia there can be no such thing as a discussion on how a major religion handles slavery (or other similar matters). Some people will always try to prove that the religion is at fault, others that it is not. The hermenutical problem is too complcated. Quoting verses in the Quran proves nothing ("konkordanzemethode"). We now for a fact that people claiming to be muslims have had slaves (as well as people claiming to be christians, Jupiter-worshippers or almost anything.

Some people see their actions as justifiable according to how they interpret their religious tradition, others don't and would claim they did what the did not acting as "true" muslims (or christians or whatever). It is not the role of an encyclopedia to provide the single true and normative interpretation.

That said, the article in it's state today is apalling. It is nothing but an apologetic sermon trying to convince us about the beauty of islam. I think this article should be deleted.

--itpastorn 21:29, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

Somehow some people got a lock on this page to prevent normal editing. I love how some people say how much they like NPOV, but then they go ahead and produce garbage like this. This article is the biggest apologetic writing I have ever seen. No mention that Saudi Arabia didn't end slavery until 1962... only random writings that Islam has tried SO hard to eliminate slavery and slaves were treated so kindly. Barneygumble 18:34, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

Another article has been started on Slavery and Islam, apparently to get around the editing block here. The articles should be merged into this one, and the other should be turned into a redirect (as I have just done with Slavery in Islam). Cheers! -- BD2412 ^talk 17:08, July 11, 2005 (UTC)

I reverted User:68.36.166.101's edits because they were unencyclopedic and POV. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 04:32, August 5, 2005 (UTC)

Anyone have any objections to this?Heraclius 04:37, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

Getting rid of this page would be a good idea, in my view. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 04:47, August 5, 2005 (UTC)

Exactly, right now it reads as an essay describing why Muslims have practiced slavery. The other version talks about Islam as a monolithic bloc encouraging slavery and makes it seem as if all Muslims should be slave-holders.Heraclius 04:48, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

I agree. The page has been trouble from the start. Good decision, Heraclius. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 04:51, August 5, 2005 (UTC)

I don't see why the deletion tag is there, it's in the Quran!!!--The Brain 08:52, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

No article on Islam on Slavery can be complete without a mention of Bilal.

This article sounds like a guilty person trying to cover-up something. It says the Quran doesn't forbid slavery but discourages keeping slaves and then goes to say all the verses about freeing slaves. There is a conscious effort my muslim wiki members to remove all the bad stuff about islam and their culture and to present only the good. That's not what wikipedia is about, it's about presenting facts. This website isn't a propaganda tool. (Anonymous User) 14 June 2006

Oh, so Muslims can't keep slaves but encourages the act of slavery to exist? So then Muslims are allowed to treat people like slaves then - torturing them in any way, and that their God allows this act? Is that what you all are implying? --Fantastic4boy 05:06, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes this very one sided it needs a section on Slaves take by Mohamed and give the numbers also mayby mention the small fact that slavery continued for a thousand years after it becomes supposedly a BAD thing.Hypnosadist 09:35, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

My first edit was make the intro less pov, and much more factual by removing unsourced comments such as "this greatly reduced slavery". My second edit was to add some historical information from the arab slave trade artical. This is bad form i know but there was nothing historical in this artical.Hypnosadist 11:31, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Addition of quotes from islam-q&a.com about when it is permisable to start rapeing your female prisoner of war.Hypnosadist 12:06, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Hypnosadist your comment above almost seems like you want to do the opposite of those who want to whitewash history, which is paint it blacker than it was. I hope that is not the case. Anyrate here some other historical arenas that may get you started on the historical narrative of the slave trade and slavery in Islamic lands. Note the bold there is a difference, the only difference Islam made upon the institution of Slavery was that it gave them rights and attempted to regulate a more humane treatment towards them, what it actually achieved or failed to acheive socially is however historical record (the dichtomy between the ideal and the actual), at any rate this initial visualization of slavery is what bifurcated the way the institution of slavery developed in the Islamic lands vs. the Christian lands and later both found theological reasons to accept a ban upon it. Slavery existed in pre-Islamic Arabia were it inherited a slave system and economy that was based off Roman, Greek and Persian concepts. Note, when I say this it does not mean slaves were treated humanely or it was a jolly good show to be one. At anyrate some other headers that can get this show started is the heavy involvement of slaves in the Islamic military apparatus and various political institutions, you have Turkic Slaves such as Alp Tigin and Sabuktigin in Abassid times, later the Slave Dynasty in India, the Mamelukes in Egypt, eventually the Janissaries in the Ottoman Empire. POWs were the greatest source of these slaves and considered booty. --Tigeroo 08:55, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Tigeroo how can you "blackwash" the enslavement of at least 25 million humans. As to your point that Islam found theological reasons to stop slavery, i would love you to try and find one of those LOL! You just get the justifications for the crimes you gave, oh we learnt it off the romans, our economy was relient forced labour or we said to treat them nice (did you know that American slave owners justified themselves in the same way). If islam thought slavery was bad it had over a thousand years to stop it, you are quite right this historical record but there is no dichtomy between the ideal and the actual, they wanted slaves and they had them. Yes i would like to much more information in this article including "Turkic Slaves such as Alp Tigin and Sabuktigin in Abassid times, later the Slave Dynasty in India, the Mamelukes in Egypt, eventually the Janissaries in the Ottoman Empire."Hypnosadist 11:56, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

I did not deny slavery or even deny the abuse inherent in the system or the historic atrocities. It's gone good riddance, no loss there. I am not gonna give you the oh it was discouraged and so it's being a goner is a good deal argument, or the we can't ensure their rights lets loose it one either since I'm more of a moral relativist. Slavery is banned, POWs are treated under the code of reciprocity, you don't touch mine I don't touch yours. I accept that there was no signficant abolitionist movement in Islamic lands. Look around you slavery dissappeared in a whiff once imposed by law and theology moved position to accomodate this situation as almost the natural state of events forbidding its reinstatement.--Tigeroo 14:31, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

"theology moved position to accomodate this situation" could not have said it better my self, and that whiff was the smell of british gunpowder.Hypnosadist 14:53, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

actually I was not referring to the British gunpowder, that did not really end the slave trade just closed the markets under its governance. I was referring to how clergy can cherry pick things conveniently enough to be seen as the fount of divine wisdom. Nevermind that they got it wrong earlier. The Pope can fit that bill just fine too. Just as a related aside look up the history of POWs what happenned to the sods and the countryside before there were any agreements governing the sides.--Tigeroo 16:15, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Does anyone have information on slaves owned by Mohammed or taken in battle by forces under his command or orders, as that would be particularly relivent.Hypnosadist 11:35, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

I think the current content in this section is not relevant to the section or the article. It needs to be replaced to other things such more relevant topics such as the slavery in Sudan and other sub- sahran areas in general. --Tigeroo 09:04, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

I do not agree. There could be very well 2 articles: one about "Islam and Slavery" (this one) and one about "Slavery in the Modern Islamic World".

Also: This article is very one-sided. The external-link given with the article gives a good example other views are also held in today's Islam:

Shaikh Saleh Al-Fawzan, a member of the Senior Council of Clerics, Saudi Arabia's highest religious body has publicly asserted as late as 2003: "Slavery is a part of Islam. ... Slavery is part of jihad, and jihad will remain as long there is Islam." He even labeled anyone who disagrees an "infidel". World Net Daily, 2003

Pukkie 14:16, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

This article is very one sided, ive started to try and improve it without loading it with week sources. The Shaikh Saleh Al-Fawzan info is very interesting. If you could find an exact source (ie a url or more detailed reference) then this SHOULD definitely go in here.

As to two different articles sticking with one covering both until we have enough for two well sourced small articles would be the best option.Hypnosadist 20:23, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

I've looked around about the Shaikh Saleh Al-Fawzan slavery quote, the original NGO that brought this alligation does not exist anymore. No primary source material (the tape of him saying this that the NGO is ment to have recorded) is available anywhere. So this fails notabilty and verifiabilty.Hypnosadist 14:40, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Caucasian peoples, particularly North Caucasian peoples, have traditionally kept slaves (and do, to this day). Many of these peoples are Muslim. I think this should be worked into the article somehow.

That is by far the more comprehensive article.--Mike18xx 04:31, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

The article "Arab slave trade" started out life as the islamic slave trade, but that got changed for POV reasons. If we keep the two articles separate then we can cover the religion here and the people at "Arab slave trade" but as i say below lets find concensus.Hypnosadist 23:11, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Although I agree with the view that the focus of this article is not clear enough, it should be noted that there are Arabs out of Islam, and the majority of people in Islam are not Arab as well. If these articles to be merged, what would happen to Ottoman Slave Trade, which needs to be written???, Reventlov 12:12, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

This article can stand on itself. --Aminz 22:36, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

there is no need to discuss the prevalence of slavery within arab/muslim history, this is already covered in the arab slave trade article. this article should focus more on the stance of islam on slavery (i.e. "slavery in islam") according to the general islamic texts, as currently there is no article dealing with the concept of slavery in islam. as an extension to this, perhaps the title of the article can be changed to "Slavery in Islam"? ITAQALLAH 21:03, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree with that. Thus, we do not need to mention "Arab slave trade" at all as it is a different topic. Instead, I support a merge with "Religion and slavery." --Truthpedia 00:08, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

the thing is, that there's nothing much to merge it with (the proposed article is a stub as per its afd noted on the talk page). as for the section "arab slave trade" then its relevance in this article needs to be discussed further. what i tried to articulate was that this article should deal with the islamic conceptual stance on slavery, which is derived from the texts and the experts in the field of islamic studies. it can be argued that the section in its current form is irrelevant here, unless the content is changed and it talks about slavery in and around the time of Muhammad which would make it relevant to the teachings of islam. this, as opposed to talking about the actions of later Muslims which, as well as not being directly relevant here, has already been dealt with to a reasonable degree in the "arab slave trade" article. ITAQALLAH 00:26, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree that this article should contain more information on the ayats and hadith associated with the slave trade. Also Islamic notables and their connections to slavery, ie did they own, trade or capture slaves themselves. Also modern Scholars and Jurists must also say what they think about slavery. I think the title is ok at the moment but we should look to see if there is a concensus.Hypnosadist 23:09, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

okay, i started work on the lead section. yes, we would want the opinions of notable scholars and jurists in the article. the sentence about islam not forbidding slavery needs work, as many jurists state that slaves can only be obtained as PoW's, and generally rule that as institutionalised slavery is more or less destroyed, it cannot be reintroduced. ITAQALLAH 23:53, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

I reverted a deletion of the below section but did not notice the change at thesource that says this article is now part of legal proceedings. I've put it here on talk until the case is sorted, if its not true i will remove it totally.Hypnosadist 23:00, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Instances of slavery in modern Muslim countries

The Sunday Times reported that Gul Khan (not to be mistaken with Gul Hassan Khan, former Chief Army Staff, Pakistan), a wealthy militant who uses the base of Jamaat-ud Daawa (JUD) near Lahore was involved in the kidnap and enslavement of Christian children from Punjab, Pakistan. It was further claimed that this money was used to fund terrorism.2

Of course if its true we put it back in, PS has anyone heard of this case from other sources.Hypnosadist 23:00, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

" Schimmel asserts that because the status of slave under Islam could only be obtained through either being a prisoner of war or born from slave parents, slavery would be theoretically abolished with the expansion of Islam." end quote.

Hypnosadist, from what i understand of your justification is that this passage is irrelevant as the condition is only true under the pretext of islam ruling the world (as well as slavery still existing). i would say not quite: because everything islam says about slavery is indeed conceptual (and this article is about what islam says and the consequences of that according to scholarly opinion). what the author is ascertaining is whether or not islam encourages or discourages slavery, and i think within this context the assertion (which muslim jurists generally opine also) is entirely relevant. it is also speculating on the restrictions placed upon slavery (by islam) and the possible effect that would have. obviously, if you have any good sources which disagree with that, then this can also be mentioned. thanks. ITAQALLAH 23:31, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

just checked EoI, it says the exact same thing also. ITAQALLAH 17:16, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

This is just factually wrong, if you have slave breeding its infinite. Slave begets slave begets slave for generation after generation. For proof of this look at america after the british navy cut off the transatlanic trade, they had more than enough when they stopped aborting the female slaves. Hypnosadist 21:32, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

slaves are most likely to breed with the master being the father (marriage with another slave is not generally likely), thus the child is born free. if it's factually wrong then all you need to do is bring a source on par with with EoI, Schimmel and Lewis so that it can be incorporated into the article (WP is about verifiabilty, not truth). ITAQALLAH 09:29, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Fine as much as i dislike quoteing them it looks like its time for Bat'yeor et al as this is just BS and does not have a place in this encyclopedia.Hypnosadist 12:35, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

PS At least you know you are promoting lies!WP is about verifiabilty, not truth) Hypnosadist 12:53, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

please refrain from personal attacks. what you perceive as truth may not be so. WP aims to quote scholarly opinions on a matter, not ascertain what is "true" via original research or unauthoritative sources like bat ye'or. ITAQALLAH 13:02, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Bat ye'or is an authoritve source ,at least she comperhends logic unlike this Annemarie Schimmel, no wonder Spencer and so forth think that Academia is completely Biased. So its non-muslims fault they are slaves for not converting (and forceing muslims to take them as POW's) is going to WP stance on islam and slavery. Hypnosadist 14:01, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

considering that she has no formal education or qualification in any topic related to islam (as well as having been criticised by established authorities), i think the value of her work is limited to helping document well-known criticisms directed at islam. she would not qualify as an independantly reliable source. ITAQALLAH 15:17, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Schimmel says they are part of the culture and some have jobs, these eunuchs were created.Hypnosadist 14:22, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

this is what she says:

"The entire history of Islam proves that slaves could occupy any office, and many former military slaves, usually recruited from the Central Asian Turks, became military leaders and often even rulers as in eastern Iran, India (the Slave Dynasty of Delhi), and medieval Egypt (Mamluks). Eunuchs too served in important capacities, not only as the guardians of womens' quarters, but also in high administrative and military positions." p.67

she says nothing about Eunuchs being (i.e. through castration) created or being part of "islamic culture", just that they were able to play a significant role in society as per islamic history. to turn the above into this: "Contempory Slaveing practices included the creation of Eunuchs in which the mans sexual organs where forcably removed" is total original research and a misuse of the source taking it totally out of context. ITAQALLAH 14:36, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

She says "Eunuchs too served in important capacities, not only as the guardians of womens' quarters, but also in high administrative and military positions." so she says eunuchs existed, so eunuchs were created or is it your OR that they cut their own balls off.Hypnosadist 14:45, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

no, as eunuchs may have pre existed in lands in which the islamic govt expanded into. it is total OR to suggest that Eunuchs were "created" as per "Contempory Slaveing practices" (as well as out of context to derive it from such a sentence). ITAQALLAH 14:48, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Oh they where somebody elses eunuchs! thats OK then!Hypnosadist 15:07, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

regarding the recent layout changes, i think the article needs to follow a coherent and chronological order. the previous layout was more suited to this i believe. it makes sense to put pre-islamic slavery as the first section, in order to contextualise the discussion (i.e. add background information) and make the actual changes implemented more apparent. slavery in islamic jurisprudence IMO belongs under "slavery in islamic society" because for a significant period of time islamic jurisprudence was part of islamic society. the opening para in "slavery in islamic society" serves as an introduction to the coming section (jurisprudence, and any historical info) which is why the 'asl (principle) is mentioned there as a pretext to what follows. ITAQALLAH 06:18, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I also think the previous layout was more coherent and ordered. --Aminz 06:25, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

This evangelical ex-SA military pro-lifer is not my cup of tea but he is on a par with Dr. Mohammad Omar Farooq for education (both doctors of divinities) and notability. I think you are applying a level of academic standard only appropriate to a modern science article not theology and history. Especially as they are a link not a source. I think this is a case of both or neither for me.Hypnosadist 14:11, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Hypnosadist, These sources may give an idea of the lines along which one should be looking for additional material to add to this article. But I think all these sources should all go away since their works are peer-reviewed university-press published works. The article by Hammond is polemical. I don't have any trust in what he says. I have seen lots of lies from both Christian and Muslim polemics. --Aminz 22:30, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

I've read the article and it has a promise for GA status. However, there are few minor copyedits needed to be done, before I make a decision. Could editors fix the following issues?

1. The second paragraph of the lead section has 2 ideas: slavery in Qur'an and Hadith, and racial slavery in Islam. It would be better to split it into 2 paragraphs.
2. The last line in the lead is awkward: "The famous medieval jurist al-Ghazzali rejected the idea of a white man being better than a black one as adopting the same hierarchical principles adopted by Satan in his ignorance, and thus falling into polytheism.3". Why does suddenly white, black, Satan and polytheism appear in the text? I don't understand it, because the line does not belong to the lead section at all.
3. Quoted statement: "The Qur’an, like the Old and the New Testaments, assumes the existence of slavery, Bernard Lewis states." should have inline citation. And then the next lines of Lewis statements do need to be cited anymore, as the context has been given.
   • I found there are many cases of this. I've made a copyedit as an example in for Azizah Y. al-Hibri in the subsection Treatment.
   • Basically, readers do not have knowledge of these persons, which are the source of the text. They are not part of the topic. So whenever you want to introduce him/her by giving a quotation, please describe first who he/she is and the first quotation should have inline citation. For example, "John Doe, an English mathematician, stated that equation of ......1"
   • Another way of quoting is by indirect quotation, which the person name is not given, but only the citation.
4. A brief explanation should be given for rare used words. For example manumission, fornication, etc.

I think the above issues are feasible to be resolved. Whenever they have been fixed, please leave me a message in my usertalk. I don't want to put this page on hold. Cheers. — Indon (reply) — 17:27, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

My take on the review (I didn't know Indon reviewed it) :

• There is a bundle of vague words used such as majority, widely, are thought and more which doesn't comply with the MoS.
• Plenty of material given in the article uses dubious verbs to present the facts like the word speculate for example.

Lincher 21:13, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

I saw your message and the lead section has been fixed, but still there are some issues. I will give my review below, and if editors can fix the issues, then I can decide the GA status. As of 2 October 2006, per WP:WIAGA, here's my assessment:

1. It is well written.

(a) it has compelling prose, and is readily comprehensible to non-specialist readers → pass

There is no difficulty for me to understand the subject. Although some minor one-further-click is required (see criterion 1.d).

(b) it follows a logical structure, introducing the topic and then grouping together its coverage of related aspects; where appropriate, it contains a succinct lead section summarising the topic, and the remaining text is organised into a system of hierarchical sections (particularly for longer articles) → pass

The lead section is better than the previous one and it gives contexts and also summarizing the article. The structure is quite logical to follow, because it all relates to slavery in the context of Islam.

(c) it follows the Wikipedia Manual of Style → weak pass

To make a quotation, use double punctuation "...". Single punctuation '...' is only used if it is a quotation inside a quotation. Please read again WP:MOS on how to make quotation.

(d) necessary technical terms or jargon are briefly explained in the article itself, or an active link is provided → needs minor copyedit

1. Well, it is said in this criterion that specialized terms are briefly explained or give wikilink, but I hate to do one click first to understand the word. It is even worse if the link is only a stub page, or has no further information, or it goes to disambiguation page, etc. So I would suggest editors to briefly explained the following words in parentheses, just like manumission that I've pointed in the above thread. They are: eunuch, congregational prayers, zakah, fornication.
2. Does zihar mean unintentional murder, or other offence?
3. What does bracket in "(for freeing necks)" mean?
4. What does the meaning of "..., such as the sometimes independent sultanate of Adal."? And the wikilink to Adal is disambiguation page. Please fix that.

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

(a) it provides references to any and all sources used for its material → request for citation

1. All materials are sourced and editors follow inline citation for better verifiability. However, some inline citations were not placed in appropriate place. When you want to quote a statement from an author of a book, it is better to put inline citation when it is first given in a context (paragraph). After that, editors can give further his/her statements in the following lines without inline citation, because the context has been given. For example in the first paragraph of section "Slavery in Islamic Society", it is stated about Bernard Lewis statement, but its source is given in the 4th line, which is too far. The link becomes loose that the same source is used for the first line. I have already given my comments above about citing quotation from a source (see the previous thread). Perhaps, editors still miss one or two of this problem. I've made a copyedit to correct for this problem.
2. Could editors give source of this line and also Qur'an passage of it? "Islam permits intimate relations between a male master and his female slave outside of marriage (referred to in the Qur'an as ma malakat aymanukum or "what your right hands possess"), although he may not co-habit with a female slave belonging to his wife." I've put {{fact}} there. Please update it.
3. The last section about Arab slave trade has no citation at all. I would like to have at least one citation there for verification of the section. You can take one or two sources from the main article.

(b) the citation of its sources using inline citations is required → inconsistent

1. There is inconsistency of quoting Qur'an and Hadith. For example in the section "Treatment of the captive". I was first confused of the list of items. Why don't readers expand it as text? But I assume that they are list of quotations from Qur'an and Hadith about treatment of captive, aren't they? But why the citation is not similar with the pervious sections? Please update it with consistent style of Qur'an and its passage number and Hadith and its source.
2. I would suggest to use quotation template for Qur'an verses. For example: