This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Here's the list of unresolved dispute(s) preventing the removal of the {{POV}} from the article. Once a dispute is resolved, it is crossed off the list. (66.167.137.237 21:24, 10 August 2006 (UTC))

• What Classical Liberalism is

A merge would be incredibly naive. Classical Liberalism more refers to the liberals of the Industrialization and Revolution era's where change was needed. Liberalism could be used with almost any idea(s).

                                     GMuffin 20:32, 3 January 2006 (UTC)       {

I merged the text into Liberalism. You can find the old text at talk:Liberalism/old text classical liberalism. The old text of this Talk page can be found at talk:liberalism/old text classical liberalism/talk.

Classic Liberalism and Classical LIberalism are "merged". —The preceding unsigned comment was added by KDRGibby (talk • contribs) 3 Dec 2005.

I'm leaving Classic Liberalism seperate just in case the socialists try and destroy Classical liberalism like they did the liberalism page. - Gibby —The preceding unsigned comment was added by KDRGibby (talk • contribs) 3 Dec 2005.

-- I believe the votes said no with only one yes for a merger of anykind... Once again giving criedence to the old saying "its not who votes that counts but who counts the votes" - Gibby :P

If you want a vote on the redirect, we can do that. I restore the page and will arange a vote. There was no vote yet on this merger. The merger voted down was another one. Electionworld 22:39, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

A comprehensive discussion of classical liberalism is included in the article Liberalism.

If this is true, something must be done about the article "liberalism". Classical liberalism, at least with that name, is hardly explained at all! -EnSamulili 18:33, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

Probably was true when the statement was written, but, as you might imagine, the Liberalism article is a bit of a battleground. -- Jmabel | Talk 01:16, August 14, 2005 (UTC)

The School of Salamanca certainly anticipated certain aspects of liberal economic theory, but in other respects they seem to me to be much more communitarian, especially in their views on sovereignty. Is there a citation for considering them an antecedent to classical liberalism? Not an insane view, but not so commonplace as to justify asserting it in passing without even noting any differences. -- Jmabel | Talk 02:47, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

... strike me as completely wrongheaded. They take at face value, and as if it were universally accepted, the libertarian claim of being the only true heirs to the heritage of classical liberalism, to the point of identifying contemporary libertarian thought with classical liberalism. From what I've seen in the literature of political science, most political scientists would hesitate to use the term "classical liberalism" to refer to anything much later than the mid-19th century, when liberalism split into, on one hand, the economic liberalism that eventually developed into things like the Austrian School and the libertarians and, on the other hand, the social liberalism of Mill, which leads (for example) to American Cold War liberalism.

I am extremely skeptical of the claim that either of these forks has more claim to the classical liberal heritage than the other. -- Jmabel | Talk 09:37, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Are you serious? Read the first few paragraphs. Like libertarianism, classical liberalism is "is a political school of thought that holds that all rights are held by individuals, and that governments are put into place solely in order to defend those rights." It was pro-free-market and against government intervention in the economy, just like modern libertarianism and unlike social liberalism. Hogeye 21:31, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Yes, I'm serious, but I don't have the time to respond at length right now. To sketch my answer: if you are going to say that, you are also going to have to say on similar grounds that the Soviet Union was not really an heir of Marx and Engels. The question is what one sees as the defining point of liberalism, and putting something in the lead of a Wikipedia article does not automatically make it true. If you see the emphasis on individual autonomy as the defining point, then of course you end up with something like libertarianism. If you see the maximization of individual liberty for the greatest number of people as the defining point, then you are more likely to end up with social liberalism. The Girondists, certainly classical liberals if ever there were, embraced Liberté - Egalité - Fraternité: fraternité is particularly missing from the libertarian vision, and the egalité has a tendency to degenerate into Anatole France's summary: "The law, in its majestic equality, forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets or steal bread." As for social liberalism, in contrast to this, consider Isaiah Berlin's "Liberty for the wolves is death for the lambs". Basically, social liberals (starting probably with John Stuart Mill) came to conclude that maximising liberty for the largest number of people required that the liberty of the powerful be, at times, impeded. I'm not saying what is right or wrong here, I'm just pointing out where the two views forked, and that they have a common heritage. -- Jmabel | Talk 20:53, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

The Girondists were not liberal (in our terminology.) They were a moderate republican (anti-monarchy) nationalist faction. During the French revolution, anyone against the monarchy was called "liberal" - even the Jacobins! Our definition requires that a primary value be liberty. As far as I know, there is no evidence that the Girondists cared about liberty at all, let alone "the maximization of individual liberty," except perhaps as an expedient bumper-sticker slogan (Liberté - Egalité - Fraternité). Do have a quote from a Girondist supporting maximization of liberty?

Jmabell: "Basically, social liberals (starting probably with John Stuart Mill) came to conclude that maximising liberty for the largest number of people required that the liberty of the powerful be, at times, impeded."

No, Mill used his utilitarianism to support the "night-watchman" state, i.e. limited government power. He was an economic liberal, not a social liberal. It was only later that people used his utilitarianism to justify instrusive government. Hogeye 22:45, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

I would say that a definition that says that the Girondins were not liberals has serious problems. For that matter, the Jacobins were initially liberals: the constitution that they drafted (and immediately suspended) was admirably liberal in its principles; the problem is that they completely subordinated those principles to what they perceived as the needs of the moment. -- Jmabel | Talk 02:34, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Libertarians have the best claim to the heritage of the Liberal than any other group around. Period. In graduate level courses when discusing the theories of liberalism both philisophical, economical...and even in the rhelm of international relations its always what we now call the CLASSICAL LIBERAL meanings. The professors generally...no...always have to re-explain this stuff. Even though they generally call themselves liberals they at least bother to teach the class that liberal in the terms of our academic text are very different from our American understanding. - Gibby

-- perhaps one day one of the two of you will realize there is a difference between the theory and rhetoric / lip service in practice. - Gibby

In my graduate level courses the only time "Liberal" refers ro "Classical Liberalism" is in IR theory, no where else (economically "neo-liberalism" is used and philosophically a historical distinction is made.) Not that it really matters because few people who disagree with your view accept that "Classical Liberalism" is the same as Libertarianism.

Can we just get one thing straight? What is Classical Liberalism? Is it the work of Locke? Is it the work of Smith and Ricardo? Mill, maybe? They didn't all advocate the same thing, so how do we define it? "Classical Liberalism", IMO, is a hindsight historical construction that gives it more solidity and continuity than it actually possessed. Viewing it as an ideology is, to an extent, misleading. Slizor 12:46, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

There are currently 2 proposed mergers:

• merge Liberal theory of economics into Classical liberalism
• merge Neoliberalism into Liberal theory of economics

To avoid duplicating arguments, discussion and voting on both mergers should be held at Talk:Liberal theory of economics#proposed mergers with Neoliberalism or Classical economics. Joestynes 14:35, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

I think things are fine where they are. No need for merge.

On 4 december 2005 I posted on this page that (in my opinion) the article needs a rework for NPOV.

Someone (apparently Hogeye) removed my comment from this page (perhaps inadvertently).

1) Please do not deliberately remove other people's comments from the Discussion pages; this is a serious violation of Wikipedia etiquette.

2) (IMHO) the article continues to need a rework for NPOV

Technically everything has a point of view. The problem is you prolly don't like what is being said. This article is about classical liberalism, and in fact, classical liberals do believe themselves to be the only liberals. That is there point of view, and Wiki, in order to be factually accurate, must point that out. This article does that quite well.

Please offer suggestions other than NPOV to help us further.

No discussion sense December 4 on the NPOV of this article, obviously this complaint was either unimportant or it has been fixed. NPOV tag removed.

I noticed some problems with the "as practiced in America" section, but I tried to clean those up. Technogeek 02:25, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Today, those who subscribe to the principles of the American Revolution--individual liberty, limited government, the free market, and the rule of law--call themselves by a variety of terms, including conservative, libertarian, classical liberal, and liberal. We see problems with all of those terms. "Conservative" smacks of an unwillingness to change, of a desire to preserve the status quo. Only in America do people seem to refer to free-market capitalism--the most progressive, dynamic, and ever-changing system the world has ever known--as conservative. Additionally, many contemporary American conservatives favor state intervention in some areas, most notably in trade and into our private lives.

"Classical liberal" is a bit closer to the mark, but the word "classical" connotes a backward-looking philosophy. Finally, "liberal" may well be the perfect word in most of the world--the liberals in societies from China to Iran to South Africa to Argentina are supporters of human rights and free markets--but its meaning has clearly been corrupted by contemporary American liberals. The Jeffersonian philosophy that animates Cato's work has increasingly come to be called "libertarianism" or "market liberalism." It combines an appreciation for entrepreneurship, the market process, and lower taxes with strict respect for civil liberties and skepticism about the benefits of both the welfare state and foreign military adventurism.

(From their website: http://cato.org/about/about.html)

Sincerely, JDR 16:17, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

I suggest to delete the page classic liberalism and redirect it to classical liberalism. As far as I understand both articles classic liberalism and classical liberalism are one and the same. The content is largely identical. The reason for the creation of the page was: "I'm leaving Classic Liberalism seperate just in case the socialists try and destroy Classical liberalism like they did the liberalism page. - Gibby —The preceding unsigned comment was added by KDRGibby (talk • contribs) 3 Dec 2005.". I do not think that is a good reason to have a separate article about the same subject. Furthermore, nobody can claim a page. Electionworld 22:46, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

• Redirect. This is essentially the definition of a POV fork. -- Jmabel | Talk 22:19, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

This article currently focuses on Hayek, Friedman, and such modern organizations as the Heritage Foundation and CATO Institute. I thought it was supposed to be about classical liberalism. It should focus mainly on pre-20th century figures like Smith, Ricardo and Bastiat. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 17:52, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

Concur. -- Jmabel | Talk 21:39, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

Classical liberalism isn't confined to those older philosophers. Hayek and Friedman are classical liberals as well --private property, free markets, and individual liberty. As far as who to focus on, I don't know --but I don't think it is an "npov" problem. I think you should remove the tag. RJII 00:16, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

If private property, free markets, and individual liberty were all there is to classical liberalism, this article would have to be merged with libertarianism. But that is not the case. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 01:07, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Libertarianism is classical liberalism. Classical liberalism isn't confined to a certain time period. You've got it all wrong if you think that. "Classical liberalism" just means "liberalism" (unless you're talking about the leftist philosophy that's called "liberal"). The term "classical liberal" was coined to distinguish from the leftist movement. Libertarianism is liberalism --classical liberalism. This is from Encyclopedia Britannica: "As liberalism became increasingly associated with government intervention in the economy and social-welfare programs, some classical liberals abandoned the old term and began to call themselves “libertarians.”" The "classical" in classical liberal is just wording to make sure we're talking about the negative rights, individualism, private property "liberalism." RJII 01:16, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

I wouldn't be opposed to redirecting this page to libertarianism. But, from the discussion above, it seems others would... -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 01:27, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

I see two options here:

1. Classical liberalism and libertarianism are the same. In that case there's no point in having two articles, and this one should be a redirect or a brief summary explaining why the same thing goes by two different names.
2. Classical liberalism and libertarianism are different things. In that case their respective articles should talk about different things and different people.

I'd be willing to support either one of those ideas. But either way, it makes no sense to keep the present form of this article. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 01:36, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

To be precise, minarchist libertarianism is classical liberalism. I'm not sure if you could include radical libertarianism (individualist anarchism, anarcho-capitalism, etc) in "classical liberalism." So, that may be what would prevent libertarianism and classical liberalism being the same article . RJII 01:44, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Well, then classical liberalism and minarchism would be the same article... If classical liberalism and X are the same thing, then classical liberalism and X should be the same article. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 01:55, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Sounds good. Delete minarchism. RJII 04:09, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

there should be two seperate articles because people understand two different words. Libertian had to come about because the word liberal had been perverted. just check out the liberal page for more info...aka the example of perversion. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.97.49.51 (talk • contribs) 31 Dec 2005.

All of this tried to be on the liberalism page but people who believe in the perverted understanding of liberalism refused to allow it...later allowing bits. There is a very wide understanding that classical liberalism is an appropriate term because of the perversion. If you remove the classical liberalism article you will remove the ability of people to search and discover this contradiction from the American understanding of liberalism. I assume this is what you want. Leave the two articles alone (Gibby 07:55, 3 January 2006 (UTC))

There should be to separate articles. I am not convinced that libertarianism and classical liberalism or minarchism and classical liberalism are the same. BTW, I think that also classical liberalism goes further than econonomy, e.g. also includes the rule of law. Electionworld 13:21, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Rephrasing pointL Libertarianism is a philisophy of political party that uses the economics and philosphy of classical liberalism to achieve its means. They are similar, but require seperate pages. Besides, few use the word libertarianism to describe liberalism.

tags have been on since December 4. I deleted them because there was no discussion on January 3rd. Someone put them back up with no discussion. These tags will be deleted within 48 hours if no further discussion insues and I will continue to delete them thereafter. You cannot put up tags with no legitmate complaints, no discussion, and no recomendations on how to improve. (Gibby 07:43, 4 January 2006 (UTC))

I've briefly stated my dispute below. I intend to overhaul the article, but I simply don't have the time for it right now... -- Nikodemos (f.k.a. Mihnea) 00:24, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Overhaul the article, I reject that. Based on your previous communist leaning editorials, you will seriously screw this up. (Gibby 04:09, 16 January 2006 (UTC))

It is already screwed up by your own libertarian POV, and needs significant "un-screwing", so to speak. -- Nikodemos (f.k.a. Mihnea) 15:20, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Nikodemos, you placed the {{totallydisputed}} tag on the article. What, precisely, do you think is factually incorrect? -- Jmabel | Talk 00:04, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Factual dispute: The inclusion of 20th century libertarians in an article about classical liberalism. The relationship between classical liberalism and libertarianism is controversial, and this article gives the impression that the two terms are synonyms. The only citations provided are from libertarian authors. -- Nikodemos (f.k.a. Mihnea) 00:22, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

NPOV dispute: The article is slanted in favor of the aforementioned libertarians. It deals more with them than with 19th century classical liberals, and often presents their views as factual truth. -- Nikodemos (f.k.a. Mihnea) 00:22, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Libertarians are the political inheritors of classical liberalism. Your dispute is largely bogus. Their inclussion, while minor, is valid. The tags have been up for more than 30 days and you have done no work and made very little discussion on cleaning it up. Please copy and paste specific sections for your complaints so we can see how to work with you or possibly determine if your complaint is ideologically driven (a valid concern, no offense) I dont find your complaints to be suffecient enough to place a totally disputed tag on the article. Zdroj:https://en.wikipedia.org?pojem=Talk:Classical_liberalism/Archive_1
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